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Old 06-03-2015, 06:11   #16
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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My general rule of thumb is to assume you will spend 10% of the current value of the boat a year to keep it in the same condition.
My actual experience is about 6% a year over 8 years: all maintenance, including some major mods, and all operating costs, including insurance.

But I do almost all maintenance/mod labor myself, and avoid marinas when on cruise.

Dave
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Old 06-03-2015, 08:46   #17
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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As do cruise ships.

What appliances do you need? Perhaps you rather need a land condo? If you really need AC, heat, dish washer, clothes washer/dryer, trash compactor, jacuzzi, expresso machine, big screen TVs, high fidelity audio, lawn sprinkler, garage door opener, gym, hot and cold running maids maybe you are in the wrong realm? Why do you want a sailing machine? Maybe a big power cat instead?



Yes, Yes.



and Yes.

What cats have you actually operated?

"None" is an acceptable answer. Just be humble enough to understand that your fantasies may not be achievable if you are cost constrained.

Dave
Never operated a big one. When young i grew up around water, i have plenty sailing experience and motorboats also, but mostly from my younger years.
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:03   #18
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

I think you will find buying it is the easy part.
Unless you have a crew of at least 4 I don't see how you are going to sail a boat that big.

Imagine some of the following scenarios:
* You're caught in a storm blowing 60 knots. You go to use the electric winches, and find out they are don't have sufficient torque.
*You get struck by lightning, and now you need to manually haul in the sheets. *imagine trying to change sails/reef (is every winch going to be electric?)
*the windlass goes out...
*trying to dock that beast in 30 knots of wind + current

You might as well be sailing a 90 ft tall ship.
I don't think affording it is your biggest problem.
I highly advise you charter a 60 ft cat.

Best of luck
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:05   #19
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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My general rule of thumb is to assume you will spend 10% of the current value of the boat a year to keep it in the same condition. This includes long term costs like new sails and engine rebuilds, as well as insurance, and immediate issues.

But frankly a 60' catamaran for a new boater... It's doable, but you are going to have to hire at least one full time captain, and probably a second full time crew. A decent captain is going to be at least $40,000 and likely more, and a good second crew (ideally the captains wife or husband) is going to run about the same. Maybe a little less, but I would budget $75,000/yr. This is in addition to the cost of boat maintenance. The captain should handle a lot of the maintenance so that helps save some money, but also uses systems so that wears them out faster. All I all its probably a wash.

As has been mentioned a 60' catamaran is a massive vessel. Most couples on cats are going to wind up between the low and mid 40's. Not just for financal issues but also because of practical issues involved in dealing with such a large vessel. Don't get me wrong a boat this size is incredible, but it isn't for the faint of heart. I would highly recommend spending some time on a boat this size and some onthe more normal range.
Hmm, enlighten me why i would need a crew when i know a couple that sail a 58 by them selves and on top of that it is their first boat.
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Old 06-03-2015, 09:23   #20
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

Rent one first. Let the crew just advise you. after two weeks make up your mind. It will be a well-planned learning experience. Mac
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:04   #21
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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Rent one first. Let the crew just advise you. after two weeks make up your mind. It will be a well-planned learning experience. Mac
sounds like a good plan
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:15   #22
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

We are in a somewhat similar situation that has generated several long, involved, and very detailed discussions on this forum. The difference in our situation is that we are very experienced boat owners and cruisers. We are planning to move from a 40’ cutter that we have owned since new in early 1995 to a 51’ catamaran that was built 2005.

I too do all my own maintenance and have been working on, running, racing, and cruising sailboats since 1971.

Here is some of my experiences with cost of ownership (US $$) and maintenance based on that 20-year ownership and 40-year sailing.

Diesel engine costs Yanmar 4JH2E (no labor – just parts) $6.05 per hour
- direct operating (fuel, filters, oil, coolant) $3.75 per hour
- Major parts (heat exchanger, water pump, mixing elbow…) $1.40 per hour
- Minor parts (hoses, clamps, paint…) $0.31 per hour
- Prop shaft & prop (cutlass bearing, packing gland…) $0.59 per hour

You have two engines so double that cost. Estimate 100 hours per year and you get $1210 per year for the engine operation and maintenance.

Moorage / Dockage This will be your really big cost
- In San Diego we will pay between $1100 and $1650 a month to keep a 51’ catamaran with a 28’ beam at a dock. I don’t know where you are but I would be surprised if you spend less than $1,000 / month or $12,000 per year for a slip.

Insurance You may find it difficult to buy insurance for such a large boat with so little boating experience. We have a perfect 20-year insurance history with no claims and 40-years documented sailing experience and were quoted $3,500 per year for insurance on the big catamaran ($500,000 declared value). That is in San Diego, which is probably the least expensive insurance locale in the US. Identical insurance in Florida was quoted at $8,000 per year.

Property Tax In both Washington State and California – we have to pay 1% of the value of the boat each year in property tax. It may be different for you but it is a big expense when looking at a $600K boat. $6,000 / year ?

Diver / Bottom Cleaning
Again, don’t know your cruising area but, even in cold Puget Sound we had to have a bottom cleaning five times a year. My current diver gets $50 per cleaning on our 40’ monohull and wants $100 / cleaning on the 51’ catamaran. There is at least another $500 per year/

Haul Out Here in San Diego there are only two yards that can pickup a 51’ x 28’ catamaran. One charges $15 per foot and the other $20 per foot so you would be spending at least $900 every other year for a haulout.

Sails Our $7,200 mainsail lasted 14 years as did our $8,000 genoa. That works out to about $1,000 per year for sail repair and replacement. I would double that cost on a much bigger catamaran.

Boat Systems I have posted many long lists of costs for our boat – search for posts by TacomaSailor. But the rule of thumb I use is about $2,000 per year when looking at the long view. On your proposed boat with “bigger” appliances I would guess $4,000 per year.

Bottom Paint At least once every three years at a cost of ??? I would guess a 60’ catamaran will need at least four gallons or about $900.

Let us summarize the ANNUAL results (based on a lot of assumptions):
- $ 1,200 Engine operating
- $12,000 Dock space
- $ 5,000 Insurance (IF you can get it)
- $ 6,000 Property tax
- $ 600 Diver / Bottom Cleaning
- $ 450 Haul Out
- $ 4,000 Boat Systems
- $ 300 Bottom Paint

That looks like at least $29,550 per year just to maintain the boat. I would also consider the $30,000 cost of sails spread over 15 years or another $2,000 per year for sails.

My long, very long, experience with boats is that everything costs more and is harder to accomplish than your most pessimistic estimate can imagine.

Therefore, I would not be surprised if a 60-foot catamaran ended up costing me over $40,000 per year to operate and maintain. My current planning for the 51-footer we are trying to buy is for $30,000 per year operating costs.

Please, pay attention to what the other experienced catamaran operators are telling you about the size and complexity of a 60-foot catamaran. I have quite a bit of experience, much of it at sea, operating boats up to 60' and 40-tons and I am intimidated by the 51' foot catamaran we want to buy.

I really do not see how you can need that large a boat.
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:20   #23
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

I initially wanted a 60' cat. At $400K used it was less expensive than the CPMY motor yacht I had been considering, and no gas cut my budget in half. 1500 sq. ft. of indoor living area seemed about right compared to my house. I would anchor out and my largest expense would be alcohol, leading to a silent interest in a local tiki bar. On my first trip to Sweden I would load up on young female volunteers to crew and maintain. Finally, I would rig the boat with live cameras and sell the rights for $$$$.

Over the last 5 years you guys have talked me down to an 10 year old 38' - I would have failed but it would have been sensational!
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:27   #24
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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Hmm, enlighten me why i would need a crew when i know a couple that sail a 58 by them selves and on top of that it is their first boat.
With enough money anything is doable. But there are issues...

1) insurance for a very large cat for owners with no experience is going to be either impossible to get or incredibly expensive.

2) learnig how to safely sail a cat is tricky. The feel of the boat is pretty much the same right up to the point it flips over. Since they rapidly loose RM at the e moment the windward hull lifts off. Knowing exactly when this happens is hard because unlike a monohull the warning signs are hard to spot. There is no heel.

3) close quarters manuverability on a vessel this large is very minimal. It's like driving a tennes court. Learning how to predict what the boat will do, and what the controls allow you to do is not a no risk proposition. Like learning how to handle any large piece of machinery it helps to have instruction.

The better you are at manuvering the boat the less deck crew you need. The captain I used to work for could make parrallel parking a 70' boat look easy, I wouldn't even try. I take our 58' out solo but my brother needs at least two other people around to take lines. It's a skill and practice thing. to learn safely you need to either get professional teaching or start on something smaller. Sure if you have the money you can buy anything and just go. I used to make a lot of money fixing boats owned by these guys, or the boats they ran over.
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:29   #25
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

Here are links to the answers for most of your questions:
The following links are about us (two very experienced cruisers) buying and operating a 51’ catamaran.
Why doesn't this beautiful catamaran sell?

One more hand holding session for a monohull sailor

More questions from a catamaran cruiser wannabe

Monohull captain wonders how to manage to catamaran

Here are links to cost of operation:
Engine cost per hr of operation

The 7th message in the following discussion contains six links to very detailed information about cost of ownership:
Annual cruzing cost
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:40   #26
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pirate Re: Can I afford to do this?

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Hi everyone, I am not a regular poster here but more a frequent lurker.
I am turning 51 soon and selling out the business as we speak. I always been fascinated by owning a big cat and looking at perhaps around a 60ft 'r. My question is what the yearly estimated cost would be to operate and maintain such a vessel. I am very mechanical inclined and would do virtually all repairs myself. Purchase plan 500-600k range and no financing. Also, would I be able to keep a used 10 year old boat (providing it in good shape) in good shape for another 20? I would be starting with day sailing only for the first while (likely Caribbean) until comfy with all of it. So do i need 30k, 50k or 70k/year?
If ya gotta ask.... No
Only you know what you've got and what you own/earn... we can speculate till Kingdom Come... which many will happily do on here but.. will you be any wiser..
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Old 06-03-2015, 10:46   #27
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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Hmm, enlighten me why i would need a crew when i know a couple that sail a 58 by them selves and on top of that it is their first boat.
Our first boat is a 46' cat. My wife and I have owned it for about a year. Our prior experience was 6 weeks of mono-sailing spread over 4 years.

The vast majority of time (98%) on my boat I am very comfortable with my sailing and boat handling skills. Although, every once in awhile when a squall blows through, I am quickly reminded that this boat can be a challenge to manage short-handed. For example, my foresail furler likes to jamb if it is jerked too quickly when furling the sail. So of course this only happens at the worst time...

I guess my point is: you never really know - until you get some time on the water.
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Old 06-03-2015, 11:49   #28
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

I hear there's a nice 51' cat for sale.......


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum
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Old 06-03-2015, 11:56   #29
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

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I hear there's a nice 51' cat for sale.......
WHOA - it is supposed to be a closely held secret!

I've only discussed that boat being for sale with a couple of my closest friends.
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Old 06-03-2015, 12:08   #30
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Re: Can I afford to do this?

The 10% value of the boat for annual maintenance figure that's been mentioned is ridiculous. On our boat, it costs less than 3% and this includes haul out and storage in Sardegna for 7 months. Maybe it's closer to 10% on a boat with a 30-50k value, but certainly not on newer more expensive boats.
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