Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

View Poll Results: how much of a discount would you need to look at a boat that is 2 or 3 years old?
5% 3 2.14%
10% 10 7.14%
15% 19 13.57%
20% 30 21.43%
25% 78 55.71%
Voters: 140. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 10-06-2007, 18:37   #46
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
Admiral best buy

Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog
I think Admiral btw is the best value for the money for new catamarans. Good blue water take me anywhere boat for a reasonable price.
Schoonerdog, you are a wise old dog indeed. The Admiral 38 is a great bargin among the overpriced Lagoons and Fontaine Pajots. Anyone who is looking at a new or used cat, be sure to check the Admiral out at one of the big east coast boat shows. I am very impressed with this blue water boat!
__________________

__________________
captainjackfoard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2007, 09:50   #47
Registered User
 
Yotboss's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: San Diego/Mexico
Boat: TPI Lagoon 42
Posts: 63
Images: 9
There's another advantage to buying used that I haven't seen mentioned here. That is, when you are 'done' (never really happens) with all that deferred and scheduled maintenance, replacing equipment more to your liking, upgrading, improving, etc., etc., you will KNOW your boat. To me, that's extremely important.

Our boat was 6 years old AND a former charter boat to boot when we got her.... one would expect nightmare tales of abuse and neglect. However, we were careful to select a boat that had all the important stuff in good condition: hull, engines, rigging, headliners, etc. While enjoying sailing her close to home for 5 years, I went through everything and repaired and replaced as needed (all that stuff has warranties, by the way). We also, based on our time aboard, made some improvements that makes our lives aboard much more comfortable and efficient.

In a nutshell, we're really happy with this approach. We know our vessel throughly and she's comfortable and easy to sail and live on. We know where everything is, what spares we need and how to fix it all. Guests often think she's new (especially in the dark!) All this for less than half of what a new, similar boat would have cost us 7 years ago.
__________________

__________________
Yotboss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-07-2007, 20:12   #48
Senior Cruiser
 
Therapy's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: W Florida
Boat: The Jon boat still, plus a 2007 SeaCat.
Posts: 6,894
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog
find out which boats are known for having problems before you buy, doesn't matter new or used.
Where is the "Consumer Reports" for Cats?

I do not know about boat brokers but I have a sense in my gut that they are the same as car salesmen.

Could I be wrong..........in general I mean......you know.
__________________
Therapy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-07-2007, 18:01   #49
CF Adviser
 
TabbyCat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: cruising in the Pacific
Boat: MaineCat Catamaran 41'
Posts: 334
Images: 1
Send a message via Skype™ to TabbyCat
In our case, the cat we wanted was new to the market. Waiting for a used boat make the right ECONOMIC sense, but meant we would put off our dream for years, if not forever.

We were presented with the "opportunity" to go while we were still physically able, so we went for it and bought new.

Others have pointed out the increase in price as time goes on. The cost for raw materials has gone up dramatically in the last few years. Coupled with the exchange rate (even if buying un the US from a US manufacturer, as many components are made abroad), the price increase can mean a used boat can sell for close to its original purchase price and look "inexpensive".

YMMV,
Mike
s/v TabbyCat
__________________
TabbyCat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-07-2007, 13:45   #50
smm
Registered User

Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Boat: Farrier F41 Catamaran - Endless Summer
Posts: 63
When evaluating a used boat, the type of "use" is very important. A 5 year old boat that has been used for occasional day sails and cocktail parties, may still have all the commissioning problems to solve (fx. leaky hatches) in addition to the usual maintenance issues. The same boat that has been sailed around the world is probably a much better buy for the simple reason that you know that it "works." New boats are most emphatically not like new cars: all the same, heavily used, and almost automatically reliable. Most boats are basically never used - hence there's little pressure on boat manufacturers to get everything right.

The charter business is something of an exception, but charter "use" isn't necessarily the same as cruising use, so, for example, you may find big giant water tanks instead of a water maker even though the latter is probably a better system for serious off-the-beaten path cruising.

Building a custom boat exposes you to substantial risk, but you might save money if everything goes well. Buying a new boat from a manufacturer means supporting sales, marketing, management and investors; you're paying at least a 30% premium over materials and labour, but the labour component should be a bit less than the custom route due to automation.

-Scott
__________________
smm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2007, 04:15   #51
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,573
Images: 240
Excerpted from the Good Old Boat magazine newsletter:
August 2007 Newsletter: Good Old Boat Newsletter: August 2007

Free brochure about surveyors

Navtech Marine Education, a training school for marine surveyors, is offering free marine surveyor hiring advice to recreational boaters who are buying or selling a boat or purchasing insurance for their boat and want to understand the marine surveyor hiring process. Call the headquarters at 800-245-4425 and ask for a free copy of “Straight Talk About Your Marine Surveyor.” The brochure outlines what boatowners should look for in a qualified and certified marine surveyor.

Navtech Marine Education and US Surveyors Association was founded in 1986 in the U.S. Virgin Islands as a captain’s license school and relocated to Ft. Myers, Florida, in 1987. If you want to learn more about this organization go to US Surveyors Association. Approved marine surveyor training and education courses.

The August 2007 Newsletter (GOB mag’) has some excellent content, including one man's take on "new v used" (Good old compared with brand new by Carl Hunt) and MUCH more - take a look at:
Good Old Boat Newsletter: August 2007
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2007, 08:19   #52
Registered User
 
waterworldly's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York City/Bimini
Boat: 52' Irwin Ketch
Posts: 441
OK, all you boating wiz kids, here's the question: The boat I am looking at ranges in price used from 325,000 (1990's) to 450,000 (2001-2002). I get a return of 5.6% clean on my savings, so the difference in price nets me about $7000 per year. SO, will the difference in age be worth the $7000 per year sacrificed for the newer boat? I will add that 2007 versions of this boat go about $950,000. I've been mulling this over in reference to a $200,000 ($11,000 per year lost in savings income) difference as well. Please note that the savings income would not inpact our crusing plans at all, so the savings has nothing to do with prolonging the cruise etc. it is more of whether the older boat will eat up that much more in repairs, materials, refitting etc in the course of a 10 year cruise. Thanks in advance for the input.
__________________
waterworldly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2007, 08:48   #53
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
you answered you question in a way. The older boat will probably need about 30-40k in newer equipment and repairs, but the newer boat will depreciate by probably about 2k per month and will also want newer equipment in around 4 years. If you get the older boat, you can upgrade it and still have 90k for other expenses and forego the huge depreciation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by waterworldly View Post
OK, all you boating wiz kids, here's the question: The boat I am looking at ranges in price used from 325,000 (1990's) to 450,000 (2001-2002). I get a return of 5.6% clean on my savings, so the difference in price nets me about $7000 per year. SO, will the difference in age be worth the $7000 per year sacrificed for the newer boat? I will add that 2007 versions of this boat go about $950,000. I've been mulling this over in reference to a $200,000 ($11,000 per year lost in savings income) difference as well. Please note that the savings income would not inpact our crusing plans at all, so the savings has nothing to do with prolonging the cruise etc. it is more of whether the older boat will eat up that much more in repairs, materials, refitting etc in the course of a 10 year cruise. Thanks in advance for the input.
__________________
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2007, 09:44   #54
Registered User
 
Limpet's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Texas
Posts: 154
I have found that the older the boat, the more extras they typically have. ALthough I also find that some of the electronics are out of date. But overall, they have more extras. Often I see them advertised has haveing just gone through a retrofit. So I guess I'm saying that it depends on the two boats being compared.
I tend to lean towards a newer boat, because the Cat industry has learned a few lessons over the years, and I just feel the newer Cats are safer and have better layouts. To me its the bones that count. If the bones are good, then everything else can be fixed.
The Boating industry seems to be in a slump along with the US dollar. I'm seeing some good prices. I have been contacted by brokers out of the blue that report having a client that is very motivated to sell. Not sure how they knew I might be interested, but the point is that the brokers are actually needing to work to make sales.
The other thing to consider is resale. How long to you plan to keep the boat? What do the depretiation curves of the two boats compare?
__________________
Limpet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2007, 11:14   #55
Registered User
 
waterworldly's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New York City/Bimini
Boat: 52' Irwin Ketch
Posts: 441
I should clarify that the boat I am considering is a monohull, I didn't realize this was a cat thread until I made the post, but by all means, all comments are welcome. Thanks!
__________________
waterworldly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18-11-2007, 11:51   #56
Senior Cruiser
 
Vasco's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Toronto
Boat: CS36Merlin, "La Belle Aurore" Ben393 "Breathless"
Posts: 7,133
Quote:
Originally Posted by waterworldly View Post
OK, all you boating wiz kids, here's the question: The boat I am looking at ranges in price used from 325,000 (1990's) to 450,000 (2001-2002). I get a return of 5.6% clean on my savings, so the difference in price nets me about $7000 per year. SO, will the difference in age be worth the $7000 per year sacrificed for the newer boat? I will add that 2007 versions of this boat go about $950,000. I've been mulling this over in reference to a $200,000 ($11,000 per year lost in savings income) difference as well. Please note that the savings income would not inpact our crusing plans at all, so the savings has nothing to do with prolonging the cruise etc. it is more of whether the older boat will eat up that much more in repairs, materials, refitting etc in the course of a 10 year cruise. Thanks in advance for the input.
waterworldly,

Buying a boat makes absolutely no economic sense. The only reason for these exercises is to justify what you intend to do. Whatever you decide it will end up costing more. Do you want it badly enough? Do you want it now? Go get it. If you are handy and have a couple of years before you set out by all means get an older boat. Remember, once you have decided on what you think you want, it often takes two years before you can find an older boat in half decent condition. They all look good in the ads but you might be scurrying around the country looking at a lot of dogs before you find the right one.
__________________
Rick I
Toronto in summer, Bahamas in winter.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/beneteau393/
Vasco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2008, 07:21   #57
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Make no mistake, for different reasons the used boat market is very soft at present in North America. Ask virtually any broker and he/she will tell you the same. In the United States, the economic downturn has been a significant factor. And in Canada, the huge rise in the value of the Canadian dollar relative to the US dollar has meant that many Canadians are now buying used boats in the US.

There is also a rather large surplus of supply relative to demand - for monohulls, frp boats last longer than the wood vessels that proceeded them and the total number of used/new boats available has increased well beyond the number of boaters. The result of all of this - there are some very good deals to be had in used boats, especially monos.

The same cannot be said, however, about new boats. The cost of manufacturing a boat has increased beyond the rate of inflation because the cost of so many of the required materials have also increased at a rate in excess of inflation: polyester resin is a petrochemical based product, and materials like aluminum require huge amounts of electricity to produce. Some of this has been offset by improvements in production efficiencies, but only some.

Further, I tend to disagree that the market for relatively large cruising cats is inelastic. PDQ, who produced some well designed/constructed products and who had a well-deserved, likely industry-leading reputation for standing behind their products, have recently gone out of business in Canada. Their products were at the high-end of the price range for 44 foot catamarans and the meteoric rise of the Canadian dollar in the last year ate up much more than just profit. I strongly suspect that many more boatbuilders will follow suit, so be careful. I can recall the impact on customers who had boats on order with C&C yachts when they went into receivership for the first time in the early 1980's - customers who had paid 25% to 75% of the cost of their boats were left with nothing, as they were 'unsecured' creditors.

Yes, there are many reasons to buy new versus used. This is especially true for someone who is not 'handy' and who has the resources to pay more in order to get exactly what he or she wants, and to make the sailing experience as trouble free as possible. But make no mistake, you will be paying more, especially in this economic climate. For the first time this is also true in the case of catamarans, since the supply of used boats is finally meeting or exceeding the demand (the flood of used charter boats is having an impact). Check it out - used cats are not holding their value as well as they were even a couple of years ago and consequently, one cannot rely upon historical numbers in assessing depreciation. In that regard, things can and will only get worse and not better.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2008, 10:31   #58
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
Ok, Southern has the best of it.

There is another person on this board that recently purchased a 46 foot steel ketch monohull for 5k us. It had nine places in the hull that needed replating due to rust, resulting from improper coating and maintenance. Took him 7 weeks to get it into the water, replated,, painted to beat the band, and looking damned nice. Still has some electrical to do, but hell, 5k plus paint and about 10 square feet of steel? Boat appears to be fully rigged.

I can't claim to have done quite that well, but for only slightly more, I acquired a 44ft. steel mono, complete, which I am now refitting to suit my own requirements.

One thing about steel, you can learn what you need to about welding on your boat in a matter of days with an excellent teacher or a few weeks at the local junior college. Thereafter you can now modify or repair your boat pretty much anywhere in the world. Not a bad ability for a cruiser.

In the news this week is the sad case of the wooden boat in south florida whose engine died before he could clear the rock jetty...tide and current and a life's dream was reduced to driftwood and salvageable metal fragments on the ocean floor. A well built steel mono would simply have been scratched up, towed off, dents fixxed, paint touched up and on its way. *most* fibreglass hulls would've faired about the same as the wood. My father ran my 54 fibreglass blue water boat into a rock jetty at about 3mph and tore a hole in the bow big enough to climb thru, fortunately the hole was above waterline and between that and the waterproof collision bulkhead, the boat was not lost and was expensively repaired .

So, it can be done. There are a TON of available boats out there right now. Fibreglass is made from oil, oil has gone up...waaaaaay up...costs of new construction are not coming down anytime soon. There are wonderful steel boats and canal barges cruising all over europe that are nearing 100 years old.....

I'd sure be looking around for a used boat. Throw in the aged dried teak, mahogany's and other desirable hardwood interiors that you can't hardly even get today at ANY price, and the used boat looks even better. Think what you would do with money you save......I was told by my surveyor that my 44 would cost around 750k or so to new build today.....

its a no-brainer unless the money is irrelevant, in which case..congratulations and buy exactly what you want

seer
__________________
Seeratlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2008, 11:08   #59
Registered User

Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 217
To Waterworldly

jeez 325 to 450k?
That's sounding 'Hinkley'esh' to me If that's what you're looking at, you might drop me a pm as I know of a similar quality (and respected boat) in excellent condition that is not on the market yet (just splashed about ten days ago or ) that is "fully outfitted" with brand new navionics etc. and ready to cruise. Owners have discovered health issues and their days at sea seem to be over. The boat could be had for far less and could be sailed proudly up to the dock anywhere in the world, whether the Hamptons or Monaco.

seer



Quote:
Originally Posted by waterworldly View Post
OK, all you boating wiz kids, here's the question: The boat I am looking at ranges in price used from 325,000 (1990's) to 450,000 (2001-2002). I get a return of 5.6% clean on my savings, so the difference in price nets me about $7000 per year. SO, will the difference in age be worth the $7000 per year sacrificed for the newer boat? I will add that 2007 versions of this boat go about $950,000. I've been mulling this over in reference to a $200,000 ($11,000 per year lost in savings income) difference as well. Please note that the savings income would not inpact our crusing plans at all, so the savings has nothing to do with prolonging the cruise etc. it is more of whether the older boat will eat up that much more in repairs, materials, refitting etc in the course of a 10 year cruise. Thanks in advance for the input.
__________________
Seeratlas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-01-2008, 01:54   #60
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Sunshine Coast - Mooloolaba Qld Aust
Boat: Spirited 380 - 11.7 m - Minx
Posts: 32
Surely it is dependent on proven build quality, the extent of excessories, the sails, carbon masts, how modern the boat is etc.
I understand one of the most popular cats sold in Oz still utalises 15 - 20 year old hull design and sells for over 5k.
We took this into consideration and eventually settled on arguably "the very latest in multihull design" in that price range.
We would not be surprised if we at least break even in two years time with the Spirited 380 which is in growing demand.
__________________

__________________
Silverback is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Buying a Catamaran with a Partner? scarab Multihull Sailboats 7 27-08-2009 07:56
Buying a charter boat through the Moorings irwinsailor General Sailing Forum 9 21-08-2008 13:52
Buying a Boat in Mexico - Advice Appreciated HughP Liveaboard's Forum 5 11-12-2006 12:19
Buying a boat scott_CAN Meets & Greets 4 28-02-2004 09:19
Buying a charter boat irwinsailor General Sailing Forum 2 26-03-2003 00:14



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:15.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.