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Old 02-07-2012, 12:45   #46
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Might be a good name for the boat in Italy

USA 50' boat = OP said the boat is in San Diego - looked more like SD
So what if You need a new rig & new sails - that is a solid foundation for cruising. What shape do you really think the rig & sails are on the other boat?

Elaborate on the Boat - not really necessary because most people have already described the amount of time, work and most importantly $$$ that it is going to take to bring that boat back to life.
As I said earlier, everyone applauds your enthusiasm and desire to get into the sport in a big way. But this is clearly a project boat, in a foreign country, in an expensive part of the world. The experienced owners here are offering sage advice - might be worth a pause
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Old 02-07-2012, 12:55   #47
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

I understand that a few members here have said that its going to take time work and money what boat doesnt? What I am asking is more for specifics. Not a whole lot of specific things have been mentioned about that boat. Bottom paint? Rudders? The broker mentioned the rigging and sails are in great condition. Interior needs work but that can be done over time. Engine is basically new so not a real expense with that for a while. What makes this boat need a ton of money and work to get livable and cruisable? Specifics please.
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Old 02-07-2012, 14:09   #48
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoney View Post
What makes this boat need a ton of money and work to get livable and cruisable? Specifics please.
The fact that you can't look at those pictures yourself and understand the scale of the challenge with that boat, let alone doing so away from "home" - nothing is impossible of course, just that not everything is possible by everyone.

That probably sounds a tad harsh / dispiriting - because it is!.....but nonetheless it is meant to be helpful.

............and maybe also even sounds a bit vague - but it is as much time as I am prepared to waste on a project that will never happen.
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Old 02-07-2012, 14:28   #49
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

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The fact that you can't look at those pictures yourself and understand the scale of the challenge with that boat, let alone doing so away from "home" - nothing is impossible of course, just that not everything is possible by everyone.

That probably sounds a tad harsh / dispiriting - because it is!.....but nonetheless it is meant to be helpful.

............and maybe also even sounds a bit vague - but it is as much time as I am prepared to waste on a project that will never happen.
Tmoney David is totally correct, you will arrive at that boat believing you have a 'LIST' to complete prior to sailing off over the horizon.
You only have one pair of inexperienced hands with a shitload of work to do, no one in this world can give you specifics from those pictures. It would take a day of crawling all over at the very least.

An analogy using pictures is the dating sites, even when it looks ok it likely just isn't. And the cost would probably be the same.....Those piccies ooze work/dollars/time/knowledge req.


You can keep pushing for specifics until you finally hear some favourable stuff from someone BUT at the end of the day it's your decision, your dollars your blood sweat and tears......

Take on something similar in your own country, at least you'll be in your own environment....

Cheers
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Old 02-07-2012, 14:44   #50
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Problem is, there are none like this in my own country. Also its not that I cant look at the pictures and see what it needs its just that I see all the major issues in tact. Hulls, rigging/sails, interior. Little things dont bother me to deal with over time. I just dont see why this boat could not be sailable with an extra 10k and my own time and work. It has all the major systems and it is a complete boat. From what I have seen that in itself is worth it. If this boat was in the US I wouldnt even be on the forum asking questions I would be on the boat working.
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Old 02-07-2012, 14:59   #51
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoney View Post
I understand that a few members here have said that its going to take time work and money what boat doesnt? What I am asking is more for specifics. Not a whole lot of specific things have been mentioned about that boat. Bottom paint? Rudders? The broker mentioned the rigging and sails are in great condition. Interior needs work but that can be done over time. Engine is basically new so not a real expense with that for a while. What makes this boat need a ton of money and work to get livable and cruisable? Specifics please.
OK some specifics:- Take the picture showing the sugar scoop damage as an example (stb side) . Now inside that damaged/worn away/shattered/rotted area (or all of the preceding) i think i can see some straight lines indicating balsa, might be foam but i think Balsa.

Check the threads on any forum regarding 'core damage from water ingress around a deck fastening' as an example. Owners suffer major delamination/rot/water ingress from a minor entry point as a fastener holding a cleat or winch, ok?

Now you have a hole in that edge that 3 keyboards could jam in. So the question is :-
1) Is it foam core?
2) Is it balsa?
3) How far does the damage extend? (remembering the hole is in a high spot so water will have drained lower into the core.)

Now no one on this site can go much further than that with what you depict in the picture. Do you get that? Hence no dollar value can be given by ANYONE! You may have to remove from outside to the inside skin a very large area, re-coring and re-glassing re-fairing along the way.

Now looking at the sharp corners of the deck/cabin construction there looks to be a high certainty that they are constructed from ply and glassed over. On one pic of port bow i see a straight line on the decks surface, questions:-
1) If ply how much rot exists?
2) Has a repair been done in the bow where that line shows (a high stress area) and why is a line still evident?????
3) Because neglect is strongly evident what is the condition of the ply where every fastener has been placed? (no picture can tell you this)

I can keep firing the questions but i'm not going to i hope you get my drift, my points are.
1) Pictures show neglect hence dollars/work/time.
2) Italy is a long way away to make assumptions from pic's.
3) Google the area it may have sat some years (not a silly thing to do really).
4) The biggest problem of inexperience on a project is TIME, time for you to achieve the skills and time for you to get the boat out of Italy, remembering you will need visa's to get you past the 90 in 90 out rule......
5) Learn at home it's much cheaper...

Cheers
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:15   #52
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoney View Post
Problem is, there are none like this in my own country. Also its not that I cant look at the pictures and see what it needs its just that I see all the major issues in tact. Hulls, rigging/sails, interior. Little things dont bother me to deal with over time. I just dont see why this boat could not be sailable with an extra 10k and my own time and work. It has all the major systems and it is a complete boat. From what I have seen that in itself is worth it. If this boat was in the US I wouldnt even be on the forum asking questions I would be on the boat working.
Well it's time to get a ticket and go look.

Take lot's photo's treat everything with suspicion, stay a week and try to find someone with down to earth fibreglass experience, it's possible that it's a goer but you will only satisfy your questions by firsthand inspection.

Don't pay any deposits, try to pre-arrange a glass expert get the history as to why it's there.....

Good luck.
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:39   #53
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Thanks for that response Lagoon. So basically the hidden damage from the apparent neglect is where all the time and money can get involved. What if, there was no rot or delamination would it still be something that is just not worth it.
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Old 02-07-2012, 15:54   #54
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Yes that's correct, and remember it's the bilges, the stiffeners the bulkheads that are likely to be made from timber that must be treated with suspicion.

Neglect in a boat is best described as a cancer, the sooner you get onto it the better the outcome. In this case it looks 2 or so years of sitting.....

Your pictures show neglect after some impact damage on the sugar scoop, it depends on how well the boat was built originally and then it also depends on many other variables such as, is water in the voids? Is ply/balsa rotten also? (if there is any in it's construction) Are there organic growths in there? ie mosses/moulds from dirt and moisture entering?

In every boat yard there are often guys working out of a ute or car that are cheap and if you can find some then your half way there. If you proceed and go there hunt these people out they may be of good use unless related to the seller!!!!

Always work with them don't pre-pay a thing. MANAGE IT!

Also i wasn't joking about using Google Earth, just go to the location and check the date the image was taken, see if your boat is in the image??? I've done it before can be helpful....

Whats a ticket cost?

Frank
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Old 02-07-2012, 16:23   #55
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

one way ticket is about $600. I can manage construction I have a lot of experience with home construction and automotive mechanics. I can generally notice if something is being done wrong or not to my standards. I am taking some lessons right now on the Italian language. I need to speak with the seller and find out more information about hull condition and about why it is in the condition its in. You wern't joking when you said it takes a while to get things done in italy because I email 2 or 3 times before they email back. I took a look at the brokers site and they have a good 40 boats listed on there most over 100,000 euros. and the site looks good. I guess time will tell.
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Old 02-07-2012, 16:35   #56
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Yes my info is english may get you by, you'll need to understand how to search for rot and de-lamination the two greatest enemies that you'll come across... Start googling...
A new motor in a boat like that indicates a loss of interest or an outside influence stopping further work, ask for an inventory because often what you saw aint what you get.
Eyes open wide!
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Old 02-07-2012, 17:48   #57
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I'll Try Again

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoney View Post
I understand that a few members here have said that its going to take time work and money what boat doesnt? What I am asking is more for specifics. Not a whole lot of specific things have been mentioned about that boat. Bottom paint? Rudders? The broker mentioned the rigging and sails are in great condition. Interior needs work but that can be done over time. Engine is basically new so not a real expense with that for a while. What makes this boat need a ton of money and work to get livable and cruisable? Specifics please.
To be Polite, I'll reply one last time.
Specifics:
1) Age - Over 20 yrs old - not good for a boat in marine environment or sitting unattended in a yard - old gear
2) Unknown History - Maintenance? treatment? Sailing conditions? Left in disrepair
3) Unseen - Pictures are only the tip of the iceberg - to be determined
4) Survey - Why not find a reputable Surveyor and invest in a Pre-Purchase
Survey before even Flying off - although it can be very educational to be present during the survey - the surveyor can also give you an indication of repair costs
5)Currency Difference = Euro - it has ranged from 1.24 to 1.40+ vs US $ over the past year
6)VAT - like many euro countries 21%+.. & people think USA taxes are bad
7)New Engine - Why? What about the other engine????
8)Stem to Stern - Every system-Electrical, Plumbing(Water/Waste), Engines, Drive Train, Fuel, Rigging, Running Rigging, Sails, Navigation, Electronics, Refrigeration, Batteries, Metal work (corrosion), Steering, etc, etc will need to be inspected & defects repaired.
9) Ship Shape - to cast off you will want to ensure that the primary systems are functional & fully tested
10) Hull Openings - hatches, thru-hulls, windows - are they water tight & operable?

In closing, A few books will help guide your pursuit i.e. Nigel Calder's BoatOwner's Mechanical & Electrical Manual - Sure there are some Cat books that will help.
Budget - You mentioned $10k - that will not even scratch the surface - Boat Bucks (1k) vanish easily

Advice - Get a notebook and write down all the suggestions, hints and advice offered by all these members which represents a very valuable resource
and many years of experience.

SURVEY - a basic requirement for all boat purchases - Start a new thread here and see if someone can recommend an experienced Surveyor in Italy or close by - You need a really good one to give you an accurate & detailed report. Then you will know most if not all the specifics.
Good Luck
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Old 03-07-2012, 07:10   #58
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lagoon4us View Post
Well it's time to get a ticket and go look.

Take lot's photo's treat everything with suspicion, stay a week and try to find someone with down to earth fibreglass experience, it's possible that it's a goer but you will only satisfy your questions by firsthand inspection.

Don't pay any deposits, try to pre-arrange a glass expert get the history as to why it's there.....

Good luck.


You could/should not make any decision without getting on a plane and taking a look. With your inexperience you would need to budget for the assistance of a surveyor.

Get on that plane.
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Old 03-07-2012, 09:12   #59
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Survey - Forgot

Forgot to include

SURVEY - Ask the Surveyor (or check their website) what areas of the boat they will NOT do. Engines would be standard, but they may not climb the mast either.
So that means You will need to get a Rigger to inspect all the mast and all the rigging + an Engine (volvo) repair shop to inspect the engines (able to start & run?) - ask local sailors & the primary Surveyor for recommendations
Yes, it will take some € to get these done.
The survey reports + your visual inspection will establish a baseline to begin repairs and preparations.
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Old 03-07-2012, 14:17   #60
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Boat does have de-lamination on the port side about 1sq meter. The place where its at also does a lot of work on the boat. He said that it will be between a 5k and 10k euro job. He also said it needs to be completely rewired. I dont know why, but I am pretty good at wiring and he said it can be worked on where it is at. He also said we can negotiate the price starting at 40k euros. He said it only has main sail and jib but the rigging and everything was in good shape. I will still get a rigger to look at it because I cannot replace 50-80k worth of mast rig and sails. However there is another boat in croatia I would like you to see Frank! I PM'd ya
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