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Old 28-06-2012, 10:01   #16
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

I bought my boat overseas. Think realistically if you have the time/ability to sail it back. If not, factor in the cost of a delivery skipper. You have to deal with customs. The tax is small but the hassle is big. Hire an agent. Jay Reynolds is good. You will want to document it. The USCG will require a lot of paperwork from the original build. Again an agent can be helpful. I did this on my own with lots of correspondence with the USCG and the seller. Then you have to consider state sales tax. This can be large. Plan accordingly. I was able to avoid it entirely, but if I stop in a state for a long time, I have to be careful. Its a buyer's market. Buy it your way. I didn't sign a contract or put a deposit down until I actually took delivery.
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Old 28-06-2012, 13:22   #17
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

I have the time and I have the ability I just dont have the knowledge. I am an extreme amature and buying a live aboard boat. I would ideally like to join a "rally" or a group of people crossing and maybe find someone who has the experience and wants a free trip. I plan to keep it in the Mediterranean for a few months. I dont have any info on the builder not to say there isnt any. There are a few boats built by the same guy/company that are for sale so I imagine he has built quite a few. On the listing it says the tax is paid but what tax would I pay in the states? what can I expect to be charged on a $50,000 boat as far as getting it registered with the coast guard and such? Is crossing the atlantic in a group in a manner which I mentioned crazy for an amature sailor to attempt with the help of a seasoned sailor?
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Old 29-06-2012, 13:04   #18
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

I am a yacht broker. We only sell catamarans, and we sell them globally. We do a lot of sales in Europe, and I just got back last week from another one in France. It is very, very hard for me to imagine a private buyer doing such a thing without making some serious mistakes. The challenges in Europe are enormous and the right questions must be asked first about:

1. Current flag
2. Current tax status
3. Current finance and or lease status

Then you have to contend with sellers and or brokers who are, for the most part, difficult. Remember, this is a place where consumer protection laws are far, far weaker than in North America, so the culture has very different standards and expectations. Buyer beware is first and foremost.

To know if you are getting a good deal you must first:

1. Establish the top end or Bristol value of the boat you wish to purchase. How a self-shopper does this is beyond me.
2. Then you must have the yacht you have in mind inspected for you to understand what keeps her from being Bristol, and discount for that,
in advance of survey.
3. Then you have to make an offer and see if the seller is prepared to sell for the right price before you book any flights. Please do not assume a European seller will renegotiate the price after a survey, regardless of what comes up. They seldom do. They are very strange in that they have in their mind some net price they must have, and then, regardless of market conditions or the condition of their boat dig in on that. It is always funny when they bring out their big folder of expenses to show you how much they have in the boat!
4. A contract is totally meaningless and unenforceable in Europe for the most part, so while it is a good idea to have one, the seller can toss it on you anytime. And they often do - someone comes along and offers them more, I can assure you that they could care less about the fact you flew over thinking you had a contract. I have seen it enough. Make sure you do your contracts in their currency too, assume the currency risk on your side, because if the currency moves against them over the process of the deal, do not be surprised if they cancel the deal or ask you to pay. I see it all the time.
5. Never place a deposit in the escrow account of a European broker unless it is a major national company. They do not have bonds, licenses, or dedicated escrow accounts often and the quality of brokers in the Med, in particular, is horribly low. If you must escrow a deposit, do it with your broker in your native country.
6. If you get to the point of a survey, and you are English, bring in or fly in an
English surveyor. Flights are cheap to the Med from UK on Ryan, etc.
7. It will be very challenging to safely manage documentation on most deals in Europe. Many yachts will be sold in a lease deal, that requires the yacht being paid off first, and it is risky to do that for a seller. Many will have complex flag and corporate structures that were set up to help the seller avoid paying VAT, etc.
8. If you get a boat in any non-English country the documents will need to be professionally translated for title transfer. Buyers and sellers tend to move toward closing like tecktonic plates in that no buyer wants to send the seller money until he has title, and no seller wants to release title until he has been paid. It often leads to stand-offs without a trusted broker or some sort of agent to escrow funds or papers.
9. If you make it that far, delivery is really very simple. Plenty of good outfits to do that. Consider on any deal in Europe that you will spend about $6,000 more to cover your flights and more costly survey, about $1,000 more to safely process documents, and delivery from, say, Italy to Florida is about
$20,000 for a slow monohull, about $18,000 for a catamaran.
10. When the boat arrives, if you are US, and it is foregin built, it must be imported, likely 1.7% percent duty. If you are an Aussie you have GST, etc.

Unless the boat is worth over 300K it is probably not worth buying in Europe.
We have agents in France and Turkey at my company, and without them it would be most impossible for us to evaluate yachts and their condition and then manage the cultural issues and challenges that arise in such sales.

Finally, the internet is now a cesspool of falsely reported yachts for sale, massive bait and switch, and the European brokers have mastered this better than any other country. The Aussies do a lot of it too. If you think you see a screaming deal, it is probably not the case. Best in Europe to operate under Russian Law - guilty until proven innocent. I hate to say this, but after countless sales in the Med I think there is an atmosphere of self-dealing the likes of which you seldom would find in most places in the world. Of course there are many wonderful people, lovely, lovely people in Europe. I count many as my friends. The sale I worked on last week I managed with two lovely Frenchman I have known for years. But doing business, especially in the South, is a real challenge to anyone who is used to plain dealing and who believes that a contract really means something.


Phillip Berman, The Multihull Company
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Old 29-06-2012, 13:06   #19
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

You need to do a lot more research on this and get realistic. If you only have a few months over there, you will spend every minute getting to know your boat and fixing what needs fixing. You will also have a million other things to worry about for getting the boat out of the EU and into the US. Forget about working a job. A rally to come across is a good idea. The best known is the ARC and it leaves around November. Probably too late to get into this year's. Hiring a delivery skipper is probably a better idea.

Taxes paid means the VAT is paid on the boat. That won't matter to you immediately unless you are a citizen of an EU nation. It might come in handy if you sell the boat to an EU citizen later. The tax you have to worry about is your local state sales tax (assuming you are a US citizen) or property tax or whatever the state imposes. Here in Ca its good old sales tax, just like you pay when you buy a screwdriver or whatever. There is also an import duty to US Customs but I think it is only between 1 and 2%.

By the way, I thought you said in another thread that you bought a boat in San Diego?
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Old 29-06-2012, 15:54   #20
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It can be painful & expensive

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoney View Post
I have the time and I have the ability I just dont have the knowledge. I am an extreme amature and buying a live aboard boat. I would ideally like to join a "rally" or a group of people crossing and maybe find someone who has the experience and wants a free trip. I plan to keep it in the Mediterranean for a few months. I dont have any info on the builder not to say there isnt any. There are a few boats built by the same guy/company that are for sale so I imagine he has built quite a few. On the listing it says the tax is paid but what tax would I pay in the states? what can I expect to be charged on a $50,000 boat as far as getting it registered with the coast guard and such? Is crossing the atlantic in a group in a manner which I mentioned crazy for an amature sailor to attempt with the help of a seasoned sailor?
Rally - Biggest & most Popular - But it costs money - Already Full w/waiting list
Welcome to World Cruising Club: ARC

Italy to Gran Canaria - approx 1700nm
Italy to East Coast of USA - approx 4000nm+++ depending on port

Taxes - as noted, Tax Paid in EU usually means VAT, Import Duty will be required upon arrival in USA(see below), more $ = depends on where you live

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...e-into-the-u.s.

USCG - can be a bumpy road if you do not follow path exactly especially with a foreign vessel - there are fees for initial documentation
USCG National Vessel Documentation Center, Home Page

Are You sure this boat is sooooooooooo special

Many people here will applaud your enthusiasm but seriously worry about this venture given the circumstances disclosed so far, especially when there are so many boats for sale much much much closer to home - with many benefits
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Old 29-06-2012, 17:26   #21
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

I was going to buy that boat in San Diego but the mast, rigging, and sails killed it for me. This boat in europe is a 52' cat as well its not a home built as there are many of them for sale and they are asking 47k euros. I figured it was a less expensive bet then spending a bunch of money on the cat in San Diego. I liked that boat a lot but this boat in europe is a lot less of a project and for someone who doesnt know their stuff to well I think its the better route. Is a 52' cat with good sails and rigging, a little cluttered and dirty inside, all there but needs a few things like bottom paint and one of the windows etc.. worth $55k US?
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Old 29-06-2012, 18:46   #22
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tmoney View Post
I was going to buy that boat in San Diego but the mast, rigging, and sails killed it for me. This boat in europe is a 52' cat as well its not a home built as there are many of them for sale and they are asking 47k euros. I figured it was a less expensive bet then spending a bunch of money on the cat in San Diego. I liked that boat a lot but this boat in europe is a lot less of a project and for someone who doesnt know their stuff to well I think its the better route. Is a 52' cat with good sails and rigging, a little cluttered and dirty inside, all there but needs a few things like bottom paint and one of the windows etc.. worth $55k US?
A 52' cat for $55K?
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Old 29-06-2012, 19:42   #23
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

This is ridiculous, go buy it, sail the med for a bit, then sail across and up the Caribbean Islands. When you get to the states register it. We had to buy a boat in the states and registered it in Canada, the US is not without it's ridiculous amounts of paperwork either.

Do your research, and you can figure it out. The first thing to remember when asking experts is they need to make it sound difficult to keep their expertise.

If it's what you want to do, go for it.

I bought my boat a similar distance you are discussing away from home, and did everything online and in a different country. To many Americans think the rest of the world is still living in the dark ages.

However, you probably will only save money if you sail it yourself. You could probably hire some of the unemployed youth over there who have been sailing their whole lives to help you take it across for cheap.

Good luck with your decision
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Old 30-06-2012, 07:30   #24
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Berman View Post
<snip>
Finally, the internet is now a cesspool of falsely reported yachts for sale, massive bait and switch, and the European brokers have mastered this better than any other country. The Aussies do a lot of it too. If you think you see a screaming deal, it is probably not the case. Best in Europe to operate under Russian Law - guilty until proven innocent. I hate to say this, but after countless sales in the Med I think there is an atmosphere of self-dealing the likes of which you seldom would find in most places in the world. Of course there are many wonderful people, lovely, lovely people in Europe. I count many as my friends. The sale I worked on last week I managed with two lovely Frenchman I have known for years. But doing business, especially in the South, is a real challenge to anyone who is used to plain dealing and who believes that a contract really means something.


Phillip Berman, The Multihull Company
Young Phil, Perhaps you would like to name the Aussies that do it, as you well know its a pretty small industry here.

Aside from that, much of what Mr Berman says has validity, even if DOJ doesn't think so. Its not that it can't be done, its just that there are traps and pitfalls and private buyers should go in with their eyes well and truly open.
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Old 30-06-2012, 11:00   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Berman
I am a yacht broker. We only sell catamarans, and we sell them globally. We do a lot of sales in Europe, and I just got back last week from another one in France. It is very, very hard for me to imagine a private buyer doing such a thing without making some serious mistakes. The challenges in Europe are enormous and the right questions must be asked first about:

1. Current flag
2. Current tax status
3. Current finance and or lease status

Then you have to contend with sellers and or brokers who are, for the most part, difficult. Remember, this is a place where consumer protection laws are far, far weaker than in North America, so the culture has very different standards and expectations. Buyer beware is first and foremost.

To know if you are getting a good deal you must first:

1. Establish the top end or Bristol value of the boat you wish to purchase. How a self-shopper does this is beyond me.
2. Then you must have the yacht you have in mind inspected for you to understand what keeps her from being Bristol, and discount for that,
in advance of survey.
3. Then you have to make an offer and see if the seller is prepared to sell for the right price before you book any flights. Please do not assume a European seller will renegotiate the price after a survey, regardless of what comes up. They seldom do. They are very strange in that they have in their mind some net price they must have, and then, regardless of market conditions or the condition of their boat dig in on that. It is always funny when they bring out their big folder of expenses to show you how much they have in the boat!
4. A contract is totally meaningless and unenforceable in Europe for the most part, so while it is a good idea to have one, the seller can toss it on you anytime. And they often do - someone comes along and offers them more, I can assure you that they could care less about the fact you flew over thinking you had a contract. I have seen it enough. Make sure you do your contracts in their currency too, assume the currency risk on your side, because if the currency moves against them over the process of the deal, do not be surprised if they cancel the deal or ask you to pay. I see it all the time.
5. Never place a deposit in the escrow account of a European broker unless it is a major national company. They do not have bonds, licenses, or dedicated escrow accounts often and the quality of brokers in the Med, in particular, is horribly low. If you must escrow a deposit, do it with your broker in your native country.
6. If you get to the point of a survey, and you are English, bring in or fly in an
English surveyor. Flights are cheap to the Med from UK on Ryan, etc.
7. It will be very challenging to safely manage documentation on most deals in Europe. Many yachts will be sold in a lease deal, that requires the yacht being paid off first, and it is risky to do that for a seller. Many will have complex flag and corporate structures that were set up to help the seller avoid paying VAT, etc.
8. If you get a boat in any non-English country the documents will need to be professionally translated for title transfer. Buyers and sellers tend to move toward closing like tecktonic plates in that no buyer wants to send the seller money until he has title, and no seller wants to release title until he has been paid. It often leads to stand-offs without a trusted broker or some sort of agent to escrow funds or papers.
9. If you make it that far, delivery is really very simple. Plenty of good outfits to do that. Consider on any deal in Europe that you will spend about $6,000 more to cover your flights and more costly survey, about $1,000 more to safely process documents, and delivery from, say, Italy to Florida is about
$20,000 for a slow monohull, about $18,000 for a catamaran.
10. When the boat arrives, if you are US, and it is foregin built, it must be imported, likely 1.7% percent duty. If you are an Aussie you have GST, etc.

Unless the boat is worth over 300K it is probably not worth buying in Europe.
We have agents in France and Turkey at my company, and without them it would be most impossible for us to evaluate yachts and their condition and then manage the cultural issues and challenges that arise in such sales.

Finally, the internet is now a cesspool of falsely reported yachts for sale, massive bait and switch, and the European brokers have mastered this better than any other country. The Aussies do a lot of it too. If you think you see a screaming deal, it is probably not the case. Best in Europe to operate under Russian Law - guilty until proven innocent. I hate to say this, but after countless sales in the Med I think there is an atmosphere of self-dealing the likes of which you seldom would find in most places in the world. Of course there are many wonderful people, lovely, lovely people in Europe. I count many as my friends. The sale I worked on last week I managed with two lovely Frenchman I have known for years. But doing business, especially in the South, is a real challenge to anyone who is used to plain dealing and who believes that a contract really means something.

Phillip Berman, The Multihull Company
Seems like Philip Berman is in the wrong job, having to deal with Europeans not keeping contracts or sale agreements ... Not speaking English.... I am sure there are more non English mother tongue Europeans able to speak decent English .... Than English speakers speaking anything but English ....
My experiances with any transaction business or private natured has always been "you get what you deserve" Phil seems to get the wrong end of the stick.

There are consumer protective laws in Europe
Agreements and contracts are upheld in general and there are consumer protective laws.
Escrow payments can be made either to a bank, or law office if you don't want it to be done through the broker.

A normal sense of caution is everywhere in the world necessary and does not release the buying party form doing a fair part of research before jumping into a purchase.

I live in China and just because it is different than it was when I lived in Europe, I have to adapt, not the Chinese!

Sorry for my poor English, I am a German, French, Italian, speaker from Switzerland.
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Old 30-06-2012, 12:10   #26
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

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Sorry for my poor English, I am a German, French, Italian, speaker from Switzerland.
Gabilo, no need to apologise, but I agree with you I think Mr Berman is in the wrong job. You certainly wouldn't want him acting on your behalf if he always has these difficulties.

Probably best he keeps to selling in his own country in future and allow us Europeans to carry on trading as we have done for the past couple of millenia.

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Old 30-06-2012, 13:23   #27
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Phillip Berman View Post
I am a yacht broker. We only sell catamarans, and we sell them globally. We do a lot of sales in Europe, and I just got back last week from another one in France. It is very, very hard for me to imagine a private buyer doing such a thing without making some serious mistakes. The challenges in Europe are enormous and the right questions must be asked first about:

1. Current flag
2. Current tax status
3. Current finance and or lease status

Then you have to contend with sellers and or brokers who are, for the most part, difficult. Remember, this is a place where consumer protection laws are far, far weaker than in North America, so the culture has very different standards and expectations. Buyer beware is first and foremost.

To know if you are getting a good deal you must first:

1. Establish the top end or Bristol value of the boat you wish to purchase. How a self-shopper does this is beyond me.
2. Then you must have the yacht you have in mind inspected for you to understand what keeps her from being Bristol, and discount for that,
in advance of survey.
3. Then you have to make an offer and see if the seller is prepared to sell for the right price before you book any flights. Please do not assume a European seller will renegotiate the price after a survey, regardless of what comes up. They seldom do. They are very strange in that they have in their mind some net price they must have, and then, regardless of market conditions or the condition of their boat dig in on that. It is always funny when they bring out their big folder of expenses to show you how much they have in the boat!
4. A contract is totally meaningless and unenforceable in Europe for the most part, so while it is a good idea to have one, the seller can toss it on you anytime. And they often do - someone comes along and offers them more, I can assure you that they could care less about the fact you flew over thinking you had a contract. I have seen it enough. Make sure you do your contracts in their currency too, assume the currency risk on your side, because if the currency moves against them over the process of the deal, do not be surprised if they cancel the deal or ask you to pay. I see it all the time.
5. Never place a deposit in the escrow account of a European broker unless it is a major national company. They do not have bonds, licenses, or dedicated escrow accounts often and the quality of brokers in the Med, in particular, is horribly low. If you must escrow a deposit, do it with your broker in your native country.
6. If you get to the point of a survey, and you are English, bring in or fly in an
English surveyor. Flights are cheap to the Med from UK on Ryan, etc.
7. It will be very challenging to safely manage documentation on most deals in Europe. Many yachts will be sold in a lease deal, that requires the yacht being paid off first, and it is risky to do that for a seller. Many will have complex flag and corporate structures that were set up to help the seller avoid paying VAT, etc.
8. If you get a boat in any non-English country the documents will need to be professionally translated for title transfer. Buyers and sellers tend to move toward closing like tecktonic plates in that no buyer wants to send the seller money until he has title, and no seller wants to release title until he has been paid. It often leads to stand-offs without a trusted broker or some sort of agent to escrow funds or papers.
9. If you make it that far, delivery is really very simple. Plenty of good outfits to do that. Consider on any deal in Europe that you will spend about $6,000 more to cover your flights and more costly survey, about $1,000 more to safely process documents, and delivery from, say, Italy to Florida is about
$20,000 for a slow monohull, about $18,000 for a catamaran.
10. When the boat arrives, if you are US, and it is foregin built, it must be imported, likely 1.7% percent duty. If you are an Aussie you have GST, etc.

Unless the boat is worth over 300K it is probably not worth buying in Europe.
We have agents in France and Turkey at my company, and without them it would be most impossible for us to evaluate yachts and their condition and then manage the cultural issues and challenges that arise in such sales.

Finally, the internet is now a cesspool of falsely reported yachts for sale, massive bait and switch, and the European brokers have mastered this better than any other country. The Aussies do a lot of it too. If you think you see a screaming deal, it is probably not the case. Best in Europe to operate under Russian Law - guilty until proven innocent. I hate to say this, but after countless sales in the Med I think there is an atmosphere of self-dealing the likes of which you seldom would find in most places in the world. Of course there are many wonderful people, lovely, lovely people in Europe. I count many as my friends. The sale I worked on last week I managed with two lovely Frenchman I have known for years. But doing business, especially in the South, is a real challenge to anyone who is used to plain dealing and who believes that a contract really means something.


Phillip Berman, The Multihull Company
Far and far away of daily practice. In the US, yes. In Europe, no.
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Old 30-06-2012, 14:59   #28
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

I'm an Aussie, we just purchased in Europe from EYB via Peter Schmid the owners broker.
Totally professional, honest AND provided an interpreter, the owner was Austrian.

Our boat was found on the cesspool internet?????

More of concern for the OP is the following:-

1) You have little sailing experience.
2) You intend to get a friend to view who you say knows nothing of boats.
3) You have little sailing experience.
4) You believe a 55 foot Cat can be bought with little to do for 52k...

Ok understand when you buy a boat in a foreign country you are on your own, there is not the comfortable english speaking boatyard just down the road where there is usually loads of help and advice.

You have to pay for all things, here in Croatia a Marina berth for a cat of that size will cost you around 1400 Euro a month if you can find one.

My advice would be for you to stay home unless you have the funds to buy the skills and cover the expenses, far better to do these things on familiar ground, gaining experience is a time thing if you need to shorten the time it will cost heaps...

Good luck tred carefully.....
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:05   #29
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

1400 Euro's a month is the most crazy figure I am aware off. Croatia is the next robber barons ground as is typical for the Balkan
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Old 30-06-2012, 15:16   #30
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Re: Buying a Boat Overseas ?

Marina Kremik which is a safe marina with regard to BURA which can be a katatonic wind at times charges around 12400 Euros for a Lagoon 440, we were given three months free mooring as part of our deal from these European Brokers.

A 55 foot cat is horrifyingly dear when it comes to berths, most these days when it comes to multi's pull out the deck area charge rate!!! It hurts.....

No experience, no knowledge = a disaster awaiting.. Honestly.
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