Building a Kit Catamaran

[downunder]

Originally Posted by delcrest

HI all, have just been reading everyone’s comments, I have been try to sell a property so I can purchase a cat and “do it now” property not sold as yet and thinking of building something in the 38-40’ range
Looking at the kit boats they all seem to have their drawbacks , the foam / epoxy / glass all have foam below the water line , which I am led to believe is a no no
The cold mould cylinder method seems to be a problem with ply laminations (voids difficult to correct in laminating the ply sheets)
The stitch and tape method also seems to be a problem with the stitching breaking the ply when opening the hulls, apart from the two hulls not being exactly the same ( by a few mm I could live with)
What am I missing?? Aluminum?? To do the build I have the space and building to do it in, no charge and take as long as I need, within stone throw from my house
Should I just go for a much older factory cat and refurbish, wait to sell the house, or build. thanks for your comments in advance

Not a no no. Many vessels are successfully built with either foam or balsa below waterline. Many of the Schonnings, Grainger, Oram and many other Aust and NZ designers. Convience me they do not have successful vessels.

Poor manufacturing does and can result in issues.

Check out Dereck Kelsall on foam sandwich. Catamarans - Kelsall Catamarans - Boat Designs

http://www.kelsall.com/TechnicalArti...heSandwich.pdf

[Boatguy30]

Although LONG out of fashion, plywood well sealed will build you the perfect cat under 40' The main problem you'll have is finding a decent design as so few designers do plans for this size cat let alone in ply.

In the US, a homebuilt boat in ply or a boat from a kit in foam has largely the same stigma. They are both hard to insure and finance. I realize in OZ, there is a different market and the foam kit boat have resold well in the past, but I'm certain this will not continue as your market keeps getting flooded with production cats crossing the pond.

[delcrest]

I live in South Africa, and have just got a price for Oceanic 373 FBK of AS$114k extra for furniture, shipping to South Africa, import tax and an import duty
I may as well wait till the house is sold, and buy new without the problems of the build here in darkest Africa with no help / advice. From anyone local that’s done one these builds Plus as the OP mentioned there seems to be a stigma on wooden / ply /FOAM /kit boats
Maybe the other way is to try finding a cat that has a good hull and needs mech / electrical over haul which I have no problem doing at least that would all be new equipment, or just settle for an older second hand boat and go now
Just been looking at the used Athena 38, which looks ok, anybody know what they are like and have sailed one There seems to be fast price differences.
Greece, Spain Italy has quite a few up for sale maybe that’s the place to go look especially with the euro crises there at the moment

[DailyLunatic]

Very interesting thread. I've really enjoyed it.

On question occurred to me as I read the posts regarding hiring extra hands to help out. From the Philippines specifically as that is where I would build it if I decided to.

Should one cut himself, or something drops on him causing him real harm. What are your liabilities for these workers?

Would you consider insurance for this, or do you hire from a bonded service or something.

-sterling

[egret]

I would imagine if you purchased a kit from a supplier and then got one or more of the suppliers team to help build it they would be have insurance cover for their worker which I would say you would be paying for in the rate you are paying them.
If you hire local people then I would expect you would have to have some public liability cover of some sort.
Not sure what you would need n the Philippines though.
From my experience with the Fusion 40 kit, if you buy one of these and get help Fusion cover their own people and as the kit can be assembled in 4 or 5 weeks you don't have to have them on site for to long.
Kit boat building can give a great outcome, you can build what you want in the time you want with the options you want. When built correctly they are better than production boats.
Hope this helps.

[beau]

I built a 12meter trimaran out of Aluminium, anything less than 4mm warps terribly when welded. There are advantages with aluminium however my boat came in heavier than planned.

[egret]

It all depends on your skills in regards to what material you build in.
Aluminium is something I could not do myself.
I looked at all the kits available, flat pane Balsa, flat panel with some formed parts and the Fusion 40 molded parts kit.
At the start of my journey there was no Fusion 40 kit and flat panel was the only option. Everyone I spoke to or visited had been years building and it was the fairing and painting that was taking the time, some had sold their projects on or had relationship break ups over it.
When Fusion came along I watched for some time as the build times I was quoted I felt could not be true.
My observation was the kit could be built in around 4 weeks and another weeks or 2 to fit motors and rig then the boat could be launched and used. I know of one Fusion that the owner has it in the water like this and brings his fridge along and chairs and they sail away for weekends with no real intention of doing much more for some time.
I know of another builder who had been 3 years building a flat panel Balsa kit only to have it burn to the ground, he brought a Fusion kit and had one of the Fusion team assist him in putting the kit together and commented that in 4 weeks he had passed what had taken him 3 years.
I crunched numbers on the kit costs and the time and every time the Fusion came in under what it would cost to get the flat panel to the same finish but the real seller was 4 weeks not 3 years.
The other thing that was a winner was that the project can be left parked at nearly any stage without fear of degradation if need be while you do other things. If you park up a flat panel kit without it being under cover for any length of time you will have to do some work to re-establish decay. The Fusion will degrade only as it would if it was exposed to the elements it would be in when moored in a marina.
I also thought there must be some health issued avoided by not having to do all the fairing and painting.
So in the end the Fusion 40 kit won hands down.
I don't want this to sound like an advert for Fusion but I can't see another way to tell my story and how my final decision was made.
Anyway I am sure there will be people who disagree or have similar experience, who is right and wrong does not matter, you must make your own choice to suit your own position.
7000kg heavy ship is the final outcome, happy with that. Those production floating caravans are over 10,000kg which is why they sail like bricks.

[geoff326]

I do wonder though about the resale value of a Kit Catamaran. While I've no doubt that some are very well assembled, one would imagine that many potential buyers might well prefer to stick with a reputable production Cat. Thus the money saved in the initial purchase could well be lost when it comes to selling a Kit Catamaran.

[egret]

That is a question that everyone asks, the resale value of any boat is never great. In Australia the second hand Fusions are selling at good prices depending on the quality of the fitout of course. Just like the other well built Schonnings boats are. The production cats here are not holding value and most of these production cats are not built well at all, I don't understand why people see it being a production boat that it is any better than a well built kit boat, it not like they are getting any warranty from the manufacturer to claim and in most cases the builder of the kit boat can hand over more information on the systems and equipment he used than the used production boat sales people can.
The reason I got Fusion to help assemble the kit was they will give a certificate to the owner saying it was assembled to the Fusion standards and only approved materials were used. I think the flat panel suppliers will also do something if they are involved in the build.
Fusion advertise completed boats built by them for $ 510k AUD plus GST if applicable and they will customize to suit your needs if required. The flat panel suppliers also have builders that do the same.
Once again I cant see any difference in buying a kit boat or a production boat, if you do not inspect and asks questions either way you can end up with problems but my experience is kit boats are built better, they are not just punched through quickly.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by egret

That is a question that everyone asks, the resale value of any boat is never great. In Australia the second hand Fusions are selling at good prices depending on the quality of the fitout of course. Just like the other well built Schonnings boats are. The production cats here are not holding value and most of these production cats are not built well at all, I don't understand why people see it being a production boat that it is any better than a well built kit boat, it not like they are getting any warranty from the manufacturer to claim and in most cases the builder of the kit boat can hand over more information on the systems and equipment he used than the used production boat sales people can.
The reason I got Fusion to help assemble the kit was they will give a certificate to the owner saying it was assembled to the Fusion standards and only approved materials were used. I think the flat panel suppliers will also do something if they are involved in the build.
Fusion advertise completed boats built by them for $ 510k AUD plus GST if applicable and they will customize to suit your needs if required. The flat panel suppliers also have builders that do the same.
Once again I cant see any difference in buying a kit boat or a production boat, if you do not inspect and asks questions either way you can end up with problems but my experience is kit boats are built better, they are not just punched through quickly.

Egret,
You wouldn't happen to be part of the Fusion team by any chance?
Vested interest? Biased, just a little? Give us a break, mate.

[egret]

Tuskie, if you read my replies properly you will see that I have given my experience of what I went through before I decided to build a Fusion, I did all the homework that we all do and I have shared why I made my decision, if it helps someone with their decision then good luck to them, if they buy a Fusion good luck to Fusion. If they buy a flat panel kit then fine and if they build in another material that's their choice. If you have some points here that helps with someone deciding on what kit they choose then write a comment. My comments are directed to help.
Tell me I am wrong when I compare the Flat panel method to the molded parts method, the kit cost me back then $125k and it was assembled and faired in 5 weeks, ready for engines, shipping and assembly cost me $ 50k so for $ 175k I had a finished and faired boat outside ready for interior, if you can tell me I could have got the same results with a flat panel balsa kit in the same time for less cost then I think you should be building boats as no-one else can.
Flat panel might be good for someone else and Fusion only offer the 40 so if you want bigger or smaller then you have to go with flat panel as far as I know. In my case the Fusion fitted my needs, time frame and budget and as I work overseas it could be stopped when I wanted and started again when I wanted.
As for Fusion itself I believe they have new owners and none of the original people I dealt with are involved anymore.
Would like to hear about your build experience with the kit you did, what it was and how long it took.

[tuskie]

Egret,
You didn't read my post very carefully. I asked if you were part of the Fusion business "team". I believe you are, and I also believe it is Forum rules to disclose such. You haven't answered that question, but have gone on yet another sales rant.

Moderators, please?

A word of advise for anyone considering a kit build; any kit build. Get the contact details of as many past customers who have actually built these kits and talk to as many as possible. Not just a couple that the kit company recommends, who may be "connected" to the company. Don't believe the forum talk from the likes of Egret about building Fusion 40s in 5 weeks for a couple of hundred $Ks.
Most home builders will share their real time inputs and costs. The few delusional ones who choose to minimise the tally will be easily spotted.

[egret]

Tuskie,
Not part of the team at all, but have a good working relationship with them now.
I said $ 175k for the kit assembled, I spent over $ 500k to get everything I wanted. I believe I could have had a nice boat for less than $ 400k if you don't put a value on your own labour but I paid others to do things I could have done myself but it was better for me to work instead overseas and pay a lower hourly rate to builders.
The original people at Fusion Australia I dealt with when I purchased the kit sold the business on. Fusion Mackay has stayed though as the Australian builder.
I saw the boat you mentioned in Brisbane built by your friend who told me Fusion Mackay had no part in his build and he had done it all himself. Nice job to. He said he had spoken to them on some issues he had during the build and was happy.
The other boat you said was assembled by them was not one of theirs and I have not seen it and I live in Brisbane near the water.
The boat that was in Manly was being built by Fusion Mackay at the same time as mine, I saw and spoke to the owners looked OK to me and I know the owners have struck a good friendship with the Fusion team involved and the boat has been serviced by Fusion Mackay since I saw it.
There was an extended boat done also and the owner was extremely happy with it.
So if you want to ask an owner who has been there and done it as you suggest then I am one and I can also give you plenty of others I have contacted because I did exactly what you suggested before I spent one red cent on the project.
Now I have answered your questions but you have not enlightened us on your experience in building your own kit boat which I know you have not done from your private post to me.

[NLEbE]

i'm at the tail end of finishing 2 50 foot cats... I spent extra money to have the design stretched from a 44 footer... they will be launched in jan or feb next year... in Langkawi... all up about 4 years build time... but mainly due to many stop and starts...

I didn't use a kit because the cost was too high, instead I bought enough corecell foam, epoxy, carbon fiber, and E-glass direct from the manufacturers in bulk. ... all up enough material to build 2/50' cats... the price was still less than buying ONE KIT to build the original 44 footer....

Bit of extra work to thermo form the compound curves but labour cost in Langkawi is much lower than in OZ and what I saved on the kit covered the cost of the extra work to vacuum bag all the flat panels..

Without the stop/starts it would have taken me 2 years to build both boats...

I'll take the boat back to OZ as a self-build and only VAT on the material content... no import duty... But get it in writing from customs before you start.. and keep all invoices......

[Boatguy30]

Does the import exemption you cite only apply to oz citizens? I imported a fiberglass boat into Australia in 2006, she was us built but as the builder was no longer in business to certify content of materials I was made to pay duty. But had builder provided that info would have been duty free due to treaty with us.


I may want to import my current self built boat in perhaps 5 years time and that would certainly save me a bunch of money. Of course don't have receipts for most of the materials!