Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 04-07-2010, 18:36   #61
Registered User
 
beau's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 757
Images: 1
The cost of the fitting out is always underestimated.
I used to manufacture 29ft Fiberglass trimarans. The hull deck was the easy part (out of a mold)
The interior takes time, lots of time and that is expensive if you want quality tradesman.
Its very rare for a boat to come out under budget.

All those lovely curves costs lots of money.
I found using a good design with flat Aluminium plate was so much cheaper and quicker. (and probably stronger)
You do need to add foam insulation and the Painting must be done professionally.
Minimum thickness for Aluminium plate is 4mm or it warps under welding.
__________________

__________________
beau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2010, 00:33   #62
Registered User
 
lancelots's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Above the water
Boat: Gravy
Posts: 92
Fusion
The price of the Sailing Kit is 92,000 Euro ex Thailand (A$126,000 today's conversion)
__________________

__________________
Signature? What Signature?
lancelots is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2010, 01:07   #63
Registered User
 
Cherp's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Hobart Australia
Boat: Catalina Morgan 45
Posts: 308
Seems to me that building any sort of boat first requires you to have a range of skills and significant spatial ability. I've picked up some basic skills and can now change chain plates and make them, do a basic cupboard with the trim and look after the diesel. Even to do that, I've had to acquire a fair bit of gear. I have very poor spatial ability but high language skills. Sort of can't do it very well, but can talk about it with significant analysis. On the other hand, my wife has good spatial skills and I ask her advice fairly often and then follow the instruction. Seems to me the best way to get into building a boat for most would be to marry Anjou who posts on this forum. She is very skilled in a whole range of areas. She'd be a keeper, I think.
__________________
Cherp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2010, 01:55   #64
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 19
Cheap and I know that there is a stock kit available at Fusion Mackay. Those blokes can have the kit assembled and ready to launch in 4 weeks with motors etc. 18 weeks is their build time from start to finish for a complete boat.
__________________
egret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 30-11-2010, 14:17   #65
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,459
Images: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by beau View Post
I met a guy recently who built a Fusion 40 from a kit. He then had the interior fitted out professionally. It ended up costing him AUD $1.2 million.
The interior was nice but they used a fake timber laminate on the interior It would have been so much better in real wood.

That guy got ripped off. It's easy to spend a lot of money, if that's what you want to do, there's a Schionning going around with crocodile skin leather lounges - $60,000 just for the upholstery.

But if you have to keep to a budget, there's no need to spend anywhere near that much.

Now I have the boat, and we're cruising on it full-time, I feel building an Oram kit has been about the best thing I've ever done.
__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-12-2010, 01:43   #66
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Liveaboard cruiser. Home port Brisbane, Queensland, Australia
Boat: Lagoon 400
Posts: 823
Quote:
Originally Posted by egret View Post
The guys at Fusion Catamarans Mackay can build the total package for $ 470k + g.s.t. This gives you a white gelcoat interior finish with timber door surrounds and everything you need to sail it away. They will veneer the interior or do whatever you like at axtra cost of course or you can take it away and have that done elsewhere.
At this price for a basic package it is the best priced cat on the market for its size and performance I think.
What do you think?
Lovely cats, but not cheap when the very basic fitout is compared to similiar sized production cats over A$500,000.

Anyway, this thread is supposed to be about DIY kit boats. I have enough trouble with boats drifting, let alone thread drift.

When considering a kit boat look at the TOTAL COST to get it finished and floating. The "hidden costs" that aren't always factored in to this total cost include shed rent, or buying/selling to get a suitable property (eg a big backyard), buying or renting lifting equipment or cranes, builders insurance, specialist labour, transport from construction site to launch site. (I haven't included divorce!)

I know some have managed to keep these hidden costs to a pittance, good onya, however this is not always possible, for example the quotes to crane a completed Fusion 40 from my backyard to the street outside my suburban house were all over A$50,000! (Two storey house, no room on sides, power company to depower electricity lines, internet cables disconnected, road closure, etc.) Once that cheque is written, now for the transport company, the police escort, .....

The panels of a Fusion 40 are large and very awkward to handle, on their website they magically appear in a wonderful sequence to neatly fit together. My experience of a Fusion build is not quite so charmed.
The roof panel in the picture below weighs only a bit over 200kg, but is over 8 metres long and must be raised about 3 metres in the air over the stern to fit.
It took 6 people, 2 winches, 3 blocks suspended on sturdy shed beams and bit of grunting to get in in position. A crane or a gantry would have been easier but another expense.



The assembled kit, only 3,000 hours to go! They do have IMHO beautiful lines, a versatile layout and no balsa (no wood, no rot!). I'm still keen but am counting those "hidden costs" carefully.


__________________
tuskie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2010, 12:56   #67
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Croatia, Brazil
Boat: n/a yet
Posts: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to lurocat
Hello after some time out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catcruiser View Post
@why me: if the spirited 380 is not a Schionning, I wonder why the designer of the Spirited 380 signs off with "Schionning".
Maybe he is a fraud....... but somehow I don't think so........

@44C : you have a wealth of information and knowledge. And more importantly, you have actually built your catamaran. Excellent! I can only be jealous and full of admiration.

I have all the information here of Schionning, Fusion, Oceanic and Spirited and have been in touch extensively with the respective designers/companies (even contacted Lidgard directly abou the Fusion). But, the real world is found here on this forum. Very useful information you can find (although somewhat one-sided and cognitive dissonant too at times).

Bob Oram's designs were new to me, so I sent him an email to ask more details about his 44C. No answer so far, but it has only been 4 or 5 days since I emailed him, as his website is rather basic where info is concerned.
Do you know of reputable companies that have built 44 Orams? As I am still not convinced that building a cat myself is what I want. It is a mammoth task, which worries me a little.

To update you on the Spirited name and why he is also a schionning.
Craig is one of the sons of jeff Schionning who left the family buisiness and started on his own when opened Spirited design cats.

Haven't been following posts for some time now, but it is always nice to come back and check up on all new ideas.

Roman
__________________
lurocat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2010, 17:53   #68
Eternal Member
 
imagine2frolic's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Las Brisas Panama AGAIN!
Boat: Simpson, Catamaran, 46ft. IMAGINE
Posts: 4,508
Images: 123
I would first look for stitch & glue method..........i2f
__________________
SAILING is not always a slick magazine cover!
BORROWED..No single one of is as smart as all of us!
http://sailingwithcancer.blogspot.com/
imagine2frolic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2011, 01:22   #69
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuskie View Post
Wow VIC33Z ! Things must really be hectic at your place.

I"ll definitely be showing your thread to my wife and teenage daughters. I'm sure that it will be inspirational! I only have two teenagers however, so I'm not sure whether my build will take more or less time than yours. LOL

Seriously though, what is your realistic expected completion time? And how many hours are you both putting in, on average, each week?

Build times are the "black holes" of amateur boat builders (and a few pros too!). Whilst the Australian kit cats such as Fusion ,Schionning,Oram, etc. have gone a long way to assist project planning, there still remains a fear of "time blowout". There are the amazingly quick build times reported by the esteemed "44'cruisingcat" and a few others. However, I've also seen a couple of builds "die in the bum", to use a boat building expression. One plywood construction in my local area (Brisbane) has been there for 30+ years! I'm sure that's no record either!

There are a couple of truely awesome amateur kit builders who aren't just building great boats, but also describing, photographing and budgetting all costs and time inputs. And then posting it all onto a website! A couple of these from Australia are:
Mahna Mahna and The Scrumble Project


Whilst I have closely followed their progress and sincerely thank them for sharing valuable knowledge, I still worry a bit about that "black hole".
Thanks for the wind in my sails there Tuskie. I am the owner builder of Mahna Mahna. We will launch our boat as Yikes hopefully within a year. Its just easier to phonetically spell!

Have known about this place a while but was not going to join until I launched and started cruising but thought I would have a look see and noticed the reference so thought I would start contributing.

I can confirm 44c observations from about the perspective of a 2003/4 Schionning kit buyer. At that time I got interested in building but did not know anything about boatbuilding or boat design, or sailing for that matter, all I knew was I wanted to join the cruising life and started reading blogs and books to learn what I could and cats seemed a much nicer what to see the world than a mono. I also attended boat shows and was initially interested in the Tasman 35 a Roger Hill design that is sadly no longer produced (I think Seawind bought them out). At that stage they offered a hull and deck package and I was interested figuring they has done the work I was most scared to get wrong. They promptly withdrew that from sale the following year just as I started to get serious and I could not afford a full sail away boat. And the only kit boat manufacturer/designer doing boat shows was Schionning.

So after much thought I bought one of their kits and it was delivered in August of 2005. I had not at that stage even heard of Orams nor had I heard of Schionning before finding them at the boat shows. Oram make a nice boat and a nice simple and cheaper kit but as I say I did not know they offered a kit when I made my choice, and for me it had to be a kit because I lacked the confidence to loft from plans and build a ply cat. It only took a few months to realize that building from plans (or without plans for that matter), is not that hard once you gain your confidence with the material and the tools required. Building is pretty much common sense and hard work over time. Its not difficult by any stretch.

I am very happy to be building a Schionning and the key selling feature that tipped me over was the bi-rig they had just drawn as the 1230 having launched the 8 meter Radical bay day sailing/racing cat the year before. The cost of their kit does not include plans which took me by surprise when I came to handing over the readies. I had asked at the August 2004 Sydney boat show the cost of the kit as I was getting very close to being ready to commit, and that was my exact question and the salesperson answered it precisely, they told me the boat to lock up kit was $70k and the furniture was another $15k. I did not ask what the cost of the plans were having assumed they would come with the kit. I told them I would be back at Christmas to pay and when I met them on Jan 5 2005 I pulled out the cheque book to write them a cheque for the cost of the 2 kits and was immediately told I would need to buy the plans for another $11K. I didnt have it so decided I would forgo the furniture for then and purchase that a couple of years down the line when it would be required. (That misunderstanding cost them a sale and saved me about $10k because I subsequently decided I wanted a different layout anyway and bought polycore and glassed it myself (vacuum bagged it) at a cost of about $5k for all my furniture).

So it is true the Oram kit is somewhat cheaper than the Schionning, but as others have pointed out, the Oram kit is a little simpler. I understand they dont have soles for example. I prefer the idea of having flotation tanks, many of them, sealed into the sole. If you hole one you can carry on safely and wont see a drop of water inside the boat, and if you hole the boat above the sole line but still under the water line, the flotation below will keep you well afloat in that hull. You would have to pretty much destroy the hull for it to sink below a level safe to continue.

But assuming 2 finished cats and no mishaps both boats would be well prized so yes you get a kit for about $15k less for an Oram (which at that end of the build is about 20% cheaper), about $10k on the kit and about $5k on the plans. But at the other end of the build $15k is not much in the overall cost of the boat. I saved more nearly that just on not buying the furniture kit and picking up a bargain on some winches. Not that there are that many Orams on the second hand market but it would seem that you make up that extra initial cost in resale value, but there are a lot of variables that effect that, build quality being the obvious. For me it is not a factor because I am told I have killed my resale value by building the bi rig.

Finally the black hole. I have been very much part time, only managing 650 hours a year (about 55 hours a month made up mostly of weekend work). I originally thought 4000 hours in 5 years would see me done, I am a couple of months past 5 years and only at 3500 hours. I should launch in the next 12 months, have hired some help to fair it and build some internal linings which would add about 1000 hours to the 800 hours I hope to fit in to finish it which means it will be closer to 5500 hours to finish her, not including the work on the wing masts, but others would not include the time the builders of their masts took in the build time.

Happy to answer any other questions you might have of me if you have not been reading the blog. Cheers, Paul
__________________
Yikes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21-01-2011, 03:15   #70
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yikes View Post
Thanks for the wind in my sails there Tuskie. I am the owner builder of Mahna Mahna. We will launch our boat as Yikes hopefully within a year. Its just easier to phonetically spell!

Have known about this place a while but was not going to join until I launched and started cruising but thought I would have a look see and noticed the reference so thought I would start contributing.

I can confirm 44c observations from about the perspective of a 2003/4 Schionning kit buyer. At that time I got interested in building but did not know anything about boatbuilding or boat design, or sailing for that matter, all I knew was I wanted to join the cruising life and started reading blogs and books to learn what I could and cats seemed a much nicer what to see the world than a mono. I also attended boat shows and was initially interested in the Tasman 35 a Roger Hill design that is sadly no longer produced (I think Seawind bought them out). At that stage they offered a hull and deck package and I was interested figuring they has done the work I was most scared to get wrong. They promptly withdrew that from sale the following year just as I started to get serious and I could not afford a full sail away boat. And the only kit boat manufacturer/designer doing boat shows was Schionning.

So after much thought I bought one of their kits and it was delivered in August of 2005. I had not at that stage even heard of Orams nor had I heard of Schionning before finding them at the boat shows. Oram make a nice boat and a nice simple and cheaper kit but as I say I did not know they offered a kit when I made my choice, and for me it had to be a kit because I lacked the confidence to loft from plans and build a ply cat. It only took a few months to realize that building from plans (or without plans for that matter), is not that hard once you gain your confidence with the material and the tools required. Building is pretty much common sense and hard work over time. Its not difficult by any stretch.

I am very happy to be building a Schionning and the key selling feature that tipped me over was the bi-rig they had just drawn as the 1230 having launched the 8 meter Radical bay day sailing/racing cat the year before. The cost of their kit does not include plans which took me by surprise when I came to handing over the readies. I had asked at the August 2004 Sydney boat show the cost of the kit as I was getting very close to being ready to commit, and that was my exact question and the salesperson answered it precisely, they told me the boat to lock up kit was $70k and the furniture was another $15k. I did not ask what the cost of the plans were having assumed they would come with the kit. I told them I would be back at Christmas to pay and when I met them on Jan 5 2005 I pulled out the cheque book to write them a cheque for the cost of the 2 kits and was immediately told I would need to buy the plans for another $11K. I didnt have it so decided I would forgo the furniture for then and purchase that a couple of years down the line when it would be required. (That misunderstanding cost them a sale and saved me about $10k because I subsequently decided I wanted a different layout anyway and bought polycore and glassed it myself (vacuum bagged it) at a cost of about $5k for all my furniture).

So it is true the Oram kit is somewhat cheaper than the Schionning, but as others have pointed out, the Oram kit is a little simpler. I understand they dont have soles for example. I prefer the idea of having flotation tanks, many of them, sealed into the sole. If you hole one you can carry on safely and wont see a drop of water inside the boat, and if you hole the boat above the sole line but still under the water line, the flotation below will keep you well afloat in that hull. You would have to pretty much destroy the hull for it to sink below a level safe to continue.

But assuming 2 finished cats and no mishaps both boats would be well prized so yes you get a kit for about $15k less for an Oram (which at that end of the build is about 20% cheaper), about $10k on the kit and about $5k on the plans. But at the other end of the build $15k is not much in the overall cost of the boat. I saved more nearly that just on not buying the furniture kit and picking up a bargain on some winches. Not that there are that many Orams on the second hand market but it would seem that you make up that extra initial cost in resale value, but there are a lot of variables that effect that, build quality being the obvious. For me it is not a factor because I am told I have killed my resale value by building the bi rig.

Finally the black hole. I have been very much part time, only managing 650 hours a year (about 55 hours a month made up mostly of weekend work). I originally thought 4000 hours in 5 years would see me done, I am a couple of months past 5 years and only at 3500 hours. I should launch in the next 12 months, have hired some help to fair it and build some internal linings which would add about 1000 hours to the 800 hours I hope to fit in to finish it which means it will be closer to 5500 hours to finish her, not including the work on the wing masts, but others would not include the time the builders of their masts took in the build time.

Happy to answer any other questions you might have of me if you have not been reading the blog. Cheers, Paul
Welcome to this awsome forum!
I have been following your building project since you published your website. In 2005 I had just started my own plans to become a cruiser.

In the beginning I had plans saving money for 5-6 years so I could afford building me a Schionning (around 42ft). By the time went on...I realised I maybe had over-estimated my plans. After about 2 years (from the day I got the idea of cruising) we had purchased a 30 ft catamaran in Panama. Sailed it accross the pacific to Australia where we sold her. Had a great time.

Every now and then I visit your website to see how you are proceeding.
Keep up the good work and the great updates!
__________________
andreas.mehlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2011, 10:03   #71
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1
Re: Building a Kit Catamaran

hey i know this is a little late and not about multi hulls but does anyone know if theyre are any kits like theese for mono hulls....or do they only make them for multi's
__________________
twsmith001 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-07-2011, 16:38   #72
Moderator
 
Boracay's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Pelican Bay, Great Sandy National Park
Boat: Steel Roberts Offshore 44
Posts: 5,175
Images: 18
Re: Building a Kit Catamaran

Building a monohull is a well understood process suited to mass production that has been happening for many years so the saving in building as opposed to buying is not large and can easily be negative (cheaper to buy than build?).

Multihull design and construction, particularly catamarans, has been less well understood, is much more expensive in mass production and there have been far fewer built leading to much higher prices (cheaper to build than buy?).

That said some fibreglass shops may still offer hulls/decks/interior mouldings for home completion but this is not as common as it used to be. I think one of the Roberts designs is available in kit form, Bruce Roberts offers cutting files and cut plate kits for his steel designs and Glen-L Marine offer component kits. There are probably many more.
__________________
Rust never sleeps
Boracay Blog.
Boracay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 12:38   #73
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Durban South Africa
Boat: WALLER MKII CAT 11M
Posts: 103
Re: Building a Kit Catamaran

HI all, have just been reading everyone’s comments, I have been try to sell a property so I can purchase a cat and “do it now” property not sold as yet and thinking of building something in the 38-40’ range
Looking at the kit boats they all seem to have their drawbacks , the foam / epoxy / glass all have foam below the water line , which I am led to believe is a no no
The cold mould cylinder method seems to be a problem with ply laminations (voids difficult to correct in laminating the ply sheets)
The stitch and tape method also seems to be a problem with the stitching breaking the ply when opening the hulls, apart from the two hulls not being exactly the same ( by a few mm I could live with)
What am I missing?? Aluminum?? To do the build I have the space and building to do it in, no charge and take as long as I need, within stone throw from my house
Should I just go for a much older factory cat and refurbish, wait to sell the house, or build. thanks for your comments in advance
__________________
delcrest is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 15:04   #74
Registered User

Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 19
Re: Building a Kit Catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by delcrest View Post
HI all, have just been reading everyone’s comments, I have been try to sell a property so I can purchase a cat and “do it now” property not sold as yet and thinking of building something in the 38-40’ range
Looking at the kit boats they all seem to have their drawbacks , the foam / epoxy / glass all have foam below the water line , which I am led to believe is a no no
The cold mould cylinder method seems to be a problem with ply laminations (voids difficult to correct in laminating the ply sheets)
The stitch and tape method also seems to be a problem with the stitching breaking the ply when opening the hulls, apart from the two hulls not being exactly the same ( by a few mm I could live with)
What am I missing?? Aluminum?? To do the build I have the space and building to do it in, no charge and take as long as I need, within stone throw from my house
Should I just go for a much older factory cat and refurbish, wait to sell the house, or build. thanks for your comments in advance
In answer to your questions above, the Fusion kit is solid glass in the bottom underwater hulls so there is no foam under the water. Not sure about the other kits but if you want a quick build than it is hard to go past the Fusion and the final look and performance of the boat is fantastic. I don't like balsa as there is the potential of rot and delamination which does happen even though some say it won't. Aluminum requires skills that most people don't have. Foam sandwich is about the best low maintenance material you can choose.
Build time will depend on your motivation and skill level, time and budget. In a previous thread there is comments on the Fusion kit about some of the sizes of the panels. I have seen people with small gantry cranes made to lift them, some people use lots of help and man handle them. When you take into account the time you are saving in laying up, fairing and painting in the old way I think a bit of lifting is far better than sucking down all that dust.
You have several choices with the Fusion, you can go it alone and build yourself, you can have a factory member onsite to help you, you can have internal furniture kits, you can have engine kits, you can have deck gear and rig kits etc. or you can have it built to any stage you want. They advertise there Basic Cruiser at $ 470k and this price has not changed for years now. Not bad for a new boat that will sail like a catamaran should.
In your case it looks like you could get the kit and build at home and if you need ask for an assembly person to get the kit together, it will take about 5 weeks and you will have a boat that you could put in the water, no fit out of course.
In summary there are lots of ways you can go but for me the Fusion is a proven method with about 80 kits being sold and built world wide and now there are new owners of the business with new ideas and drive to assist the home builder and product overall it ticks all the boxes.
Hope this is of help to you
__________________
egret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-04-2013, 15:14   #75
Senior Cruiser
 
44'cruisingcat's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7,459
Images: 69
Re: Building a Kit Catamaran

Quote:
Originally Posted by delcrest View Post
HI all, have just been reading everyone’s comments, I have been try to sell a property so I can purchase a cat and “do it now” property not sold as yet and thinking of building something in the 38-40’ range
Looking at the kit boats they all seem to have their drawbacks , the foam / epoxy / glass all have foam below the water line , which I am led to believe is a no no
The cold mould cylinder method seems to be a problem with ply laminations (voids difficult to correct in laminating the ply sheets)
The stitch and tape method also seems to be a problem with the stitching breaking the ply when opening the hulls, apart from the two hulls not being exactly the same ( by a few mm I could live with)
What am I missing?? Aluminum?? To do the build I have the space and building to do it in, no charge and take as long as I need, within stone throw from my house
Should I just go for a much older factory cat and refurbish, wait to sell the house, or build. thanks for your comments in advance
Foam or blasa core below the waterline is not a no-no. It just requires some common sense when fitting through hulls.
__________________

__________________
44'cruisingcat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
kit catamaran, builder

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sail Repair Kit Charlie Deck hardware: Rigging, Sails & Hoisting 14 18-04-2010 17:13
First Aid Kit Full Sail General Sailing Forum 7 13-09-2009 22:06
Building Plans for 35' Catamaran chrismac Classifieds Archive 0 05-07-2009 00:18
Prices! Material, Man-Hours, Local Prices (Kit-Catamaran) freetime Multihull Sailboats 8 27-08-2008 02:16
Custom building a catamaran RandyAbernethy Multihull Sailboats 8 22-04-2006 10:37



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 05:51.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.