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Old 14-02-2010, 14:55   #31
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Originally Posted by why me? View Post
I've worked on a Schionning "kit" too. I think they(using same material) cost a little more than a Oram but include more. The per panel cost is the same. Schionning charge a little more for the plans too I think and I do hear they all get a commission(kickback) back from balsa supplier.
Schionning kits cost a lot more. My understanding is that you buy the Schionning kits from Schionnings, with their mark-up, but Bob Oram simply gives you a customer number, and you deal direct with ATL, the material supplier. Bobs plans are around 60-70% of the price of Schionnings plans too.

I recently had some Spirited 380 builders look over my boat. It was impressive to see how far their jaws dropped when I told them my kit (for a much bigger boat) was $50,000 cheaper than theirs!
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Old 14-02-2010, 19:49   #32
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From my recollection, a few years ago the kit price for a 44 from Oram was about $62K? And at about the same time a schionning kit for a wilderness about the same size was about $80K. I was shown the study plans and quotes. The schionning boat provided for everything including furniture which they used as structural. The Oram boat was shell only and didn't use the furniture for structure so didn't need to include. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, the Oram kit doesn't provide pre-cut panels for decks, cabin top etc but the schionning boat did. There was just a lot more to the schionning kit. I think the newer wilderness designs from schionning include prefab sections.

Apples-oranges. Horses for courses.

And what does a spirited boat have to do with it? Spirited is not schionning designs. I don't know what the spirited kit costs but I saw one delivered and it was massive. Everything except a tooth brush holder included. And it includes pre fab sections as I recall, bilges, cabin top, all the hard to do stuff shows up ready to stick in place. More like a part fusion, part panel kit. You get what you pay for. Just had a look at spirited to confirm memory, yup, no comparison at all. The hard stuff is all done.

And just because you "deal direct" with suppliers doesn't mean there is no 'commission' involved now does it.
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Old 14-02-2010, 19:54   #33
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And a post script to the above, It's just a matter of what you want to take on. Pay more money, have less work and shapes and curves that a home builder just might not be able to achieve. Everyone has their advantages and disadvantages but you have to be fair to compare.
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Old 15-02-2010, 05:17   #34
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Where to begin?

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Originally Posted by why me? View Post
From my recollection, a few years ago the kit price for a 44 from Oram was about $62K? And at about the same time a schionning kit for a wilderness about the same size was about $80K. I was shown the study plans and quotes. The schionning boat provided for everything including furniture which they used as structural. The Oram boat was shell only and didn't use the furniture for structure so didn't need to include. Also, correct me if I'm wrong, the Oram kit doesn't provide pre-cut panels for decks, cabin top etc but the schionning boat did. There was just a lot more to the schionning kit. I think the newer wilderness designs from schionning include prefab sections. .
Yes you are wrong. The Wilderness kits don't include furniture in their base price. It's an optional extra. Deck panels aren't pre-cut. (No big deal anyway.) And the base price for the Wilderness 1230, at the time I bought my kit was over $20,000 more than the Oram kit.


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And what does a spirited boat have to do with it? .
The thread is about kit boats. The Spirited 380 is a kit boat. Too complicated for you to follow?

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Originally Posted by why me? View Post
Spirited is not schionning designs. I don't know what the spirited kit costs but I saw one delivered and it was massive. Everything except a tooth brush holder included. And it includes pre fab sections as I recall, bilges, cabin top, all the hard to do stuff shows up ready to stick in place. More like a part fusion, part panel kit. You get what you pay for. Just had a look at spirited to confirm memory, yup, no comparison at all. The hard stuff is all done.
That is pretty much garbage too. The hull shoes and the corner between the deck and sheer panel are prefabricated. That is all. It still takes most people between 5000 and 6000 hours to build one. You still have to fair 90% of the thing, and paint 100% of it.

All the hard work done? Rubbish. Not even the Fusion can claim that, and the Spirited is a LOT of work away from being as complete. But price-wise, it's much closer.
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Old 15-02-2010, 06:13   #35
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@why me: if the spirited 380 is not a Schionning, I wonder why the designer of the Spirited 380 signs off with "Schionning".
Maybe he is a fraud....... but somehow I don't think so........

@44C : you have a wealth of information and knowledge. And more importantly, you have actually built your catamaran. Excellent! I can only be jealous and full of admiration.

I have all the information here of Schionning, Fusion, Oceanic and Spirited and have been in touch extensively with the respective designers/companies (even contacted Lidgard directly abou the Fusion). But, the real world is found here on this forum. Very useful information you can find (although somewhat one-sided and cognitive dissonant too at times).

Bob Oram's designs were new to me, so I sent him an email to ask more details about his 44C. No answer so far, but it has only been 4 or 5 days since I emailed him, as his website is rather basic where info is concerned.
Do you know of reputable companies that have built 44 Orams? As I am still not convinced that building a cat myself is what I want. It is a mammoth task, which worries me a little.
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Old 15-02-2010, 14:59   #36
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Bob is down the sunshine coast at the moment, visiting some of his builders, and will be for a couple more days. No doubt he'll reply ASAP when he gets back.

Streamline catamarans Streamline Catamarans. Sailing Catamarans. have built a 44C, Neil Bochow of coolcats has built 4 I think, and is currently building "just one more for myself", and AFAIK Stallion marine have priced some of Bob's kits too.

You're certainly right, it's a very big commitment.
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Old 15-02-2010, 20:11   #37
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44 cruising cat you are dead wrong on every item and you ought to know better so I wonder why you say those things and why you have to be rude in reply?

And Cat Cruiser, Spirited is run by Craig Schionning. He is the son of Jeff Schionning and the family parted ways several years ago and not friendly from what I hear. Schionning designs is Jeff and Lorraine Schionning, A very, very separate company and not to be confused. Please read previous posts before jumping to conclusions. I stated this in a reply to you.

But back to 44 CC, no, you are wrong. The schionning wilderness 1230 comes with pre-cut panels for furniture as well as pre-cut panels for decks. Anyone questioning that can call Schionning designs and ask. And as far as cost, I specified $18,000 difference from uncertain recollection, you verify I was quite close.

You said, "The thread is about kit boats. The Spirited 380 is a kit boat. Too complicated for you to follow?" The posts you were replying to were on the subject of Schionning and Fusion and Oram but not to mind, lets talk Spirited.

44 Cruising cat, you said, "That is pretty much garbage too. The hull shoes and the corner between the deck and sheer panel are prefabricated. That is all."

You are bold with your insults for being so ignorant of the facts, a quote from the Spirited web site; (Moulded) Componentry for the Spirited 380 now in‐cludes the hulls and decks, daggerboards and rudders, engine hatches and gutters with associated fittings, engine beds to suit the Yanmar 21HP and moulded bows.

Further pre‐cutting has been included in the Spirited 380 kit, all internal locker doors are now added. Just like every other pre‐cut part will save on many unnecessary build hours.


Everyone has a favourite. You are entitled to your opinion but don't slag the designers that sell a different product like you have been doing.

If you think this kind of behaviour is benefiting your mate Oram, I would say you are wrong there too. If this represents Bob Orams 'build philosophy', it would turn me off. Suggesting that other designers overcharge or gouge is poor form.

It doesn't hurt to look around to see how successful a designer has been and what value is placed on the boats for sale. And has the designer every produced a real looser.
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Old 15-02-2010, 23:28   #38
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My information was one month old. Sorry. The moulded bows etc are mentioned in the JANUARY 2010 newsletter. They were not supplied before. They were not supplied to any of the Spirited builders I know. In fact the engine hatches have been a contentious issue with some Spirited builders for a while, so it will be a good thing if it has finally been resolved.

Actually to say the hulls and decks are moulded is pretty misleading. The hull shoes are moulded, and the radius between the sheer panel and deck is moulded, but the sheer panel and deck surface are still Duflex flat panels.

Engine beds are usually supplied with saildrives anyway.

And the furniture kit IS optional with the Wilderness 1230 (now 1250 I believe). Several builders have decided not to buy the furniture kits.

From their study plans:
WHAT’S IN THE KIT ?
KIT OPTION 1:
Your Wilderness kit (option 1) will include all the materials to
build the shell, including your daggerboards and cases forward
beam and catwalk, rudders, (exc s/s) and targa bar if the design
has one. This includes, pre
cut Duflex panels, durakore planking
for strip planked sections, fiberglass cloth and tapes, epoxy
glues and filler, foam, timber and plywood. This stage can be
split into 3 smaller stages making it more affordable.

KIT OPTION 2:
Your Wilderness kit (option 2) will be supplied as above PLUS
the interior furniture kit. All Wilderness designs have at least
one pre
cut interior kit option. You may prefer to buy option 1

and custom fit the interior yourself.


Bob oram doesn't suggest other designers gouge or overcharge. I have stated that IMO Bob's kits represent the best value for money. You get a bigger boat for less money and no more work.

Now they have gotten cheaper, the Fusion is also very good value, if you can afford the initial outlay, and the boat suits you. Far better than the Spirited IMO. Even with the newly developed additional moulded parts. I believe with a Fusion kit you even get the assistance of a boatbuilder till lock up stage.
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Old 16-02-2010, 05:27   #39
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Yes, when I had contact with Fusion, they did indicate they would send someone out to help build the boat. That is quite a plus.

To have an Oram 44 built to standard cruising fitout and launched, is approx. 600.000 AUD I have just learned. For that money, I rather have a Wilderness 1250X built at 595.000 or even a 1340X at 650.000, as they have the name Schionning. From what I see of 2nd hand prices, they will have a better resale value than the Orams.

@Why me? I was joking a little bit about the Schionning name. I know the story. But, you cannot help but see that the Spirited certainly has a lot of simularities to the "real" Schionning designs.
They might not be friendly to each other, but the resemblance is certainly obvious.

Found yet another kit boat: the Freeflow 44. Sleek looking cat, but to have built a lot more than the other 44's (795.000 AUD). Cool cat though.
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Old 16-02-2010, 05:31   #40
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To have an Oram 44 built to standard cruising fitout and launched, is approx. 600.000 AUD
Is that what they are charging? Sheesh! That is amazing. Who was that?

Might need to increase my insurance.
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Old 16-02-2010, 05:44   #41
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Yes, I nearly fainted too when I saw that.
It is by Stallion Marine. They do build to a high standard though and have good reports.
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Old 16-02-2010, 06:04   #42
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44cruising cat:

How much did it cost you building it?

/Andreas
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Old 17-02-2010, 00:30   #43
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Guys,

I am currently researching a cruising cats to order in about 18 months time to set up for diving (means compressor/gen set/Tanks, watermaker etc) and long range independence from resupply. All chain rode. area of ops initially Coral sea, PNG, Asia, Pacific. Shaft drive diesels.

The deficency in many cats for me is inadequate load carrying, particually fuel. Vessels looking at currently Freeflow 44- 46 Freeflow Catamarans

and Oram 48 of new 52C. 48′ C Bob Oram Design

Will be watching progress of simple rig systems with fullers only Bob Oram,s drawing for the 48C and Aframe or whisbone using furlers only
Sail the difference

Looking for a simple safe but still good sail performance.

Good point of the Freeflow 46 is that motor with 2 degree shaft angle and fuel/water 3x 375 liters each hull will be centrally located below hull floors giving great balance. The FF44 is lightship of 6780kg and max displacement 11200kg. designed to carry load from design. Would have to go to the larger Oram to get load carrying.

For my diving needs unfortunately 40 ft vessels can't carry load I will carry. Watched several Fusions assembled here in Mackay. Look great but too small for me. So many criusers are carrying heaps of jerrycans and have to chase fuel wherever.

44C congratulations on your build.
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Old 21-02-2010, 21:00   #44
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Actually as far as I can recollect the 1230 and 380 were both designed by Craig Schionning, hence the similarities between the two. The 1230 was Craig's last project before starting up Spirited. Schionning Designs have since modified the 1230 and changed it to the 1250X (along with all their other wilderness designs) incorporating some attractive changes that are in the 380, namely extending the hull to house the engines outside the living spaces and modifying the build process so that the hulls are built the right side up after constructing the shoes. I just purchased a 1250X and the complete Kit (Opt 1) now costs around $100K which includes the plans. If you want the furniture plans/kit as well then add another $12K to that price.The Spirited is around $120K but includes some mouldings namely the hull shoes etc. The fusions are starting to look real attractive as the aussie dollar is rising against the Euro. At today's exchange rate you can pick up the fusion for about $142K including shipping and then add the $15K for the furniture kit if required. You may need to add materials to complete the build for the fusions also. The difference between the fusion, 380 and 1250X after this comes down to the build time. The fusion is around 3000hrs, the Spirited around 4500hrs and the 1250X 5000hrs.These are for quality finishes and times can be shortened. The fusion has the added advantage of only needing a touch up around the joins externally whereas you're up for a full paint job for the other two.
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Old 22-02-2010, 07:16   #45
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... The difference between the fusion, 380 and 1250X after this comes down to the build time. The fusion is around 3000hrs, the Spirited around 4500hrs and the 1250X 5000hrs.These are for quality finishes and times can be shortened. The fusion has the added advantage of only needing a touch up around the joins externally whereas you're up for a full paint job for the other two.
Thanks Phil. Great synopsis.

WELCOME ABOARD!
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