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Old 03-05-2016, 15:26   #16
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

The modern multihull movement expanded rapidly in the sixties due to DIY builders. I was one. I saw others building their plywood Wharrams and Pivers and I said I can do that. Hundreds or thousands got onto the water, who could not have afforded to buy. There was none of the negative stuff I read here and elsewhere.

I built and went sailing, but while building decided I could improve on the designs and on the build methods. I started foam and the results were better and considerably quicker to produce the shell. I have gone on improving the KSS build technique ever since and still finding refinements.

There is no prouder owner than one who can say, I did that, as his boat goes afloat. Only capped when he completes a circumnavigation.

Apart from the satisfaction, there are big advantages. The first is you know every part of the boat and its systems which is very reassuring when crossing an ocean. Second is you put in what you need. Third - using KSS your cat will be tonnes lighter than a Lagoon or FP. It does not need that huge rig to perform, saving weight and cost.

What happened?? I have no doubt - too many selling plans jumped on the foam strip band wagon, claiming quick and simple, which it could never be when we were joining full sheets of foam together to put down in one piece. Those who built in strip took far too long - deterring everyone else who might have seen his project.

Ask any owner builder, using an efficient build technique and he will almost certainly,, tell you it was the best thing he ever did. DIY is not for everyone but if you have a bent for making things, it is not difficult to build a cruising cat with KISS systems. Doctors and dentists have been some of the best DIY builders I have worked with.

There is a lot of sales talk around this topic. I say, research but dismiss all opinion and then decide on what makes sense to you. If you fancy building do your homework first. There are few things in this life more satisfying than building and going sailing on your creation.

Happy boating,

Derek.
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Old 03-05-2016, 16:22   #17
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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I'm going to disagree somewhat, hulls and decks are the easy bit, big yes but easy, hire some skilled labour if need be, quality fit out is where the professional help pays off. IMHO


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Having built (and resin infused) mine, I'll agree.

Im currently in a catch 22. Need to work to feed the boat money, but need to build the interior out.

You cannot do both, unless you have a very easy job.

Too much thinking involved in the building.

So... the above post is the best way to go. Still searching for that semi-pro interior fitter (i can do systems in my sleep).
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Old 03-05-2016, 17:57   #18
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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I'm going to disagree somewhat, hulls and decks are the easy bit, big yes but easy, hire some skilled labour if need be, quality fit out is where the professional help pays off. IMHO


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The idea behind my seeming madness, is this:
Get the basics of the boat built quickly, so that you can get out cruising in a year or two vs. ten.
And to do so before you run over budget/out of money, doing a "proper" build. Then having to stay home that much longer, in order to save to finish the boat. Let alone "fully" outfit her with all of the latest (unnecessary) gear.

Yes, at first, you're boat will be a bit spartan; but the boats which race around the world, have the interior amenities comparable to backpacking.

So which would you rather do; get out there, or stay home & build fancy trim on cabinetry?
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Old 03-05-2016, 22:08   #19
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

The idea of fitting out a boat while cruising sounds good, but IMO it would be a very long, slow and unpleasant process.


The boat is never going to be as easy to work on as while it's in your shed. You have access to power, level surfaces, tools etc. All of this can be a real hassle on the water.


Trying to live on a boat filled with paint fumes, drying epoxy etc.... I'll pass thanks. And it would take much longer.


I built a decent sized cat in 4 years, completely by myself. I estimate about 6000 hours of actual work. I'm not a tradesman, but was always DIY inclined. Never called electricians to change light bulbs. I know quite a few similar (ie. not skilled boatbuilders or tradesmen) guys who did the same, some took longer, some less.


It's very much within most people's capabilities, IMO.
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Old 03-05-2016, 22:19   #20
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

Further, much of how you go about it is going to depend on the individual's skill set. As to order of things most cabinetry goes in more efficiently before the deck goes on, this could be subbed out to a workshop and built on the shop floor.
There are many ways to skin the cat.
:-)


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Old 03-05-2016, 23:30   #21
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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Doctors and dentists have been some of the best DIY builders I have worked with.
LOL! These guys also don't mind spending 100K to build "custom car", then sell it for 30K and "move to the next project" ))). That mafia definitely doesn't care about financial side of project.

I have question to these who familiar with financial side - what would be your rough estimate to build something similar to Lagoon 560 or Sanya 57 including similar finishing and equipment)?
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Old 04-05-2016, 04:43   #22
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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The idea of fitting out a boat while cruising sounds good, but IMO it would be a very long, slow and unpleasant process.


The boat is never going to be as easy to work on as while it's in your shed. You have access to power, level surfaces, tools etc. All of this can be a real hassle on the water.


Trying to live on a boat filled with paint fumes, drying epoxy etc.... I'll pass thanks. And it would take much longer.


I built a decent sized cat in 4 years, completely by myself. I estimate about 6000 hours of actual work. I'm not a tradesman, but was always DIY inclined. Never called electricians to change light bulbs. I know quite a few similar (ie. not skilled boatbuilders or tradesmen) guys who did the same, some took longer, some less.


It's very much within most people's capabilities, IMO.
Yep, I very much understand. Especially having done things both ways. And I Fully get your point about living in a perpetually dusty boat when you're working on her & living aboard at the same time.
Albeit some of this is a bit easier to isolate in a multi vs. a mono.

BTW, 6K hours is damn quick to build a cat of that size. You have some serious skills when it comes to tools.
My curiosity about her; design, construction, & fit out, are more than piqued. Ditto on taking a "visual tour".

And regarding some of the other comments. Yes, it'd be nice to be able to sub-contract out many of the "little jobs" which can eat up a lot of time. Like cabinets, for instance.
Though it all comes down to one's budget. Well, that, & your; haggling/bartering skills, & focus of will/desire.
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Old 04-05-2016, 13:09   #23
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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Originally Posted by ranchero76 View Post
LOL! These guys also don't mind spending 100K to build "custom car", then sell it for 30K and "move to the next project" ))). That mafia definitely doesn't care about financial side of project.

I have question to these who familiar with financial side - what would be your rough estimate to build something similar to Lagoon 560 or Sanya 57 including similar finishing and equipment)?
Starting from nothing a lagoon 560 probably has about 11,000 hours into it, so figure the total labor cost in the boat is around $300,000.

1,000,000 -lagoon 560 base price
-300,000 - labor savings

$700,000 - build price

But Lagoon buys in massive bulk, and will pay far less than a one off builder for materials. Let's assume this costs you about 20% over their price

700,000 - build price
* 1.20 - loss of bulk ordering advantage

$840,000 - actual build price.
$160,000 - net savings

Of course you have spent 11,000 hours building the boat (assuming you are as fast as Lagoon), and you should at least price your labor... So given the net savings, you priced your labor at around $15/hr, not including benefits, insurance, etc... So if you make more than $30,000/year it is cheaper to buy it from Lagoon than build it yourself.

Not that these numbers assume that you don't have to buy any tools to build the boat, have the same amount of scrap, etc... But also assumes you install all new equipment.
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Old 04-05-2016, 13:26   #24
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

Maybe a little off topic, but I have followed one persons boat building saga via his site, which if you have not seen, may find informative/interesting. He is building a monohull out of aluminum and appears to be getting close to completion and seems pretty close to the budget he set. What I really like is his approach to problem definition and solving that go along with his very good mechanical / woodworking skill sets. It is worth noting that he has had several conversations with the designer (Dudley Dix) during the course of construction on various changes he wanted to incorporate. The take I got from his relating those conversations was that Dudley is very familiar with how his designs go together, be it by an experienced yard or a single person. This designer understanding of the build process probably goes a long way towards helping to solve issues that arise during the construction.

Take note: even with Brian Russell's (the builder/owner) level of skill, you should look at the timeline of the posts on the website. Been going on for seven years now.

Click on the 'Building Blog' menu item:
THE ART OF BOATBUILDING
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Old 04-05-2016, 13:46   #25
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

Budget you say? I built my 26 footer as I earned and learned.Worked for me.
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Old 04-05-2016, 14:42   #26
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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LOL! These guys also don't mind spending 100K to build "custom car", then sell it for 30K and "move to the next project" ))). That mafia definitely doesn't care about financial side of project.

I have question to these who familiar with financial side - what would be your rough estimate to build something similar to Lagoon 560 or Sanya 57 including similar finishing and equipment)?
I wouldn't build something similar to a production boat. What would be the point? IMO the appeal of building is that you can build something you can't buy. A really well constructed performance boat at a mass produced price.

And that IS achievable, even using hired labour. There's a guy near us who built an 11 metre Schionning hiring one skilled builder full-time and some labourers at times, (and a spray painter to paint) for less than the then current cost of an FP Mahi 36. It took a year.

But if he'd wanted a Mahi, it would have made sense to simply buy a Mahi.
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Old 04-05-2016, 14:47   #27
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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BTW, 6K hours is damn quick to build a cat of that size. You have some serious skills when it comes to tools.
My curiosity about her; design, construction, & fit out, are more than piqued. Ditto on taking a "visual tour".
Thanks, but from what I've seen 6000 hours is about average, for this type of boat. I think my skills are maybe about average too. I've seen some home builders do seriously nice work.

I finterested, you can have a bit of a look here:
Member Galleries - Cruisers & Sailing Photo Gallery
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Old 04-05-2016, 14:57   #28
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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Starting from nothing a lagoon 560 probably has about 11,000 hours into it, so figure the total labor cost in the boat is around $300,000.

1,000,000 -lagoon 560 base price
-300,000 - labor savings

$700,000 - build price

But Lagoon buys in massive bulk, and will pay far less than a one off builder for materials. Let's assume this costs you about 20% over their price

700,000 - build price
* 1.20 - loss of bulk ordering advantage

$840,000 - actual build price.
$160,000 - net savings

Of course you have spent 11,000 hours building the boat (assuming you are as fast as Lagoon), and you should at least price your labor... So given the net savings, you priced your labor at around $15/hr, not including benefits, insurance, etc... So if you make more than $30,000/year it is cheaper to buy it from Lagoon than build it yourself.

Not that these numbers assume that you don't have to buy any tools to build the boat, have the same amount of scrap, etc... But also assumes you install all new equipment.
Now let see. Nicely equipped brand new Lagoon 560 has price tag over 1.5M. Even if we will use you assumptions (I personally think that Lagoon has more than 20% bulk discount), build price goes over 1M, and it will take at least few years to finish, plus you have to work hard on that project.
That very same nicely equipped Lagoon 560 (but few years old) right now can be purchased for less than 900K (if you count bargaining in). My bet it would need less than 100K to bring it back to "close to new" condition, a specially, if one would do work himself. And in a few months - just go cruising!
If you will wait couple years (remember, if you've started building, it hasn't been finished yet at that point!) , that very same nicely equipped 560 will probably worth 350-500K (like 570 right now). How much of boat you can build for $500K?
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Old 04-05-2016, 15:19   #29
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

But why on earth would you build a Lagoon?
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Old 04-05-2016, 15:52   #30
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Re: Boatbuilding a multihull, budgets, paradigms, utter falsehood

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I wouldn't build something similar to a production boat. What would be the point? IMO the appeal of building is that you can build something you can't buy. A really well constructed performance boat at a mass produced price.

And that IS achievable, even using hired labour. There's a guy near us who built an 11 metre Schionning hiring one skilled builder full-time and some labourers at times, (and a spray painter to paint) for less than the then current cost of an FP Mahi 36. It took a year.

But if he'd wanted a Mahi, it would have made sense to simply buy a Mahi.
I STRONGLY second this, on all points. And would add that if you go this route, make sure that the designer is easy to work with, & offers good support while you're building.
Plus, on such a project, you have the flexibility to tune some aspects of the design. Like some of the interior layout, adding a few feet to the hulls, or toying with various rig options.

Done right, you'll wind up with something which is FAR lighter, has performance way beyond 95% of the production boats out there. And is more comfortable to live/sail on, while being easier to handle.
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