BMW Oracle Evaluating Monos and Multis . . .

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by Factor

Rubbish - did you not watch the lunatic trimaran video? the most exciting thing about match racing 12 metres was watching Australia II win and watching Audtralia III sink.

I mean that statement simply has no logical support. Thats like saying the world rally championship would be more exciting if we made the cars twice as heavy , half as fast.

This isnt about monos and multis - no matter how much you and sara and others want to make it, its about wealthy dickheads stuffing a sport. To suggest only monos can have interesting sail boat racing is not just silly - its absurd.

I think you missed the point. It's like saying you can have the fastest cars racing each other on separate tracks or you can have two slower cars that actually look like they are racing each other. Which would you find more interesting?!

Look at the footage for yourself. The cats hardly close at all. There's one where the cat is hiked all the way up, but as we know, that's not how it should be sailed anyway. Other than that, the boats are hardly in the same shot. Compare it to the monohulls:

http://www.youtube.com/34thac#p/a/u/2/4QRazx3biWE

[Factor]

No you are absolutely right. We dont want sail boats racing - we want motor sailers racing - that will be much better.

[David M]

That's better, a scaled back cat that is not going to cost a hundred million that can be taken in the high winds found in SF Bay in the summer.

It's relatively inexpensive, competitive, exciting and works in high winds. What more could you want?

I just don't see mono's that are pretty much limited to their hull speed or giant trimarans that can only go fast in light airs as interesting...not for the SF Bay. Anyone who has sailed here knows this place can blow like hell in the summer. 35 knots is not unusual. It makes no sense to shut down the racing because its blowing 35 knots here....this is when things start getting fun and certainly interesting for the public.

Originally Posted by tsmwebb

From today's testing:


Tom

[Stillraining]

My sentiments exactly

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by David M

That's better, a scaled back cat that is not going to cost a hundred million that can be taken in the high winds found in SF Bay in the summer.

It's relatively inexpensive, competitive, exciting and works in high winds. What more could you want?

Works for me.

I just don't see mono's that are pretty much limited to their hull speed or giant trimarans that can only go fast in light airs as interesting...

But to be fair the canting keel monos will have multihull like performance and would easily sail in excess of "hull" speed much of the time. Also, it was the cat, not the tri that was limited to very light winds in the last race. As it became clear that SNG were insisting on a very low wind race BMW/O modified to tri for light winds but as originally launched it was capable of sailing in racing weather using only the wind and person power.

Tom

[David M]

In 35 knots of wind? I had no idea the Oracle trimaran was capable of staying upright in that amount of wind with no sails up at all.

Additionally they need to get rid of the two boat racing...sorry, but how boring if you do not already understand yacht racing?

A line with a dozen or so boats is far more exciting than a two boat start. This is a huge factor as far as generating excitement is concerned. This they need to do if they want a larger audience.

They need to get rid of the challenger aspect of the race. After five days with of all the boats racing, the winner should be the boat with the fewest points.....like they do with real regattas. This would be a truer measure of who is fastest...not by having the cup holder race who turned out to be the winner of the challengers. That's BS, and everyone knows this. This gives the cup holder a huge advantage. People want true competition, not a rigged race which gives the cup holder a huge advantage. What if they did that with golf and at the end put in Tiger to challenge the winner? Would anyone even bother to watch?

[sneuman]

Originally Posted by David M

In 35 knots of wind? I had no idea the Oracle trimaran was capable of staying upright in that amount of wind with no sails at all up.

Additionally they need to get rid of the two boat racing...sorry, but how boring if you do not already understand yacht racing?

A line with a dozen or so boats is far more exciting than a two boat start. This is a huge factor as far as generating excitement is concerned. This they need to do if they want a larger audience.

They need to get rid of the challenger aspect of the race. After five days of all the boats racing, the winner should be the boat with the fewest points.....like they do with real regattas.

Hmmm. I respectfully disagree. I think from a tv-standpoint, 2-boat match racing is much, much better. A dozen boats at the line would be utterly confusing for a neophyte television audience, in my opinion.

[Joli]

What makes a two boat race with multi's "unfun to watch" is pressure. If one multi finds better pressure they can easily put a "major hurtin" on the other boat, then the race becomes a game of cover, cover, cover......
That is one of the major reasons the world races monos....

[David M]

Joli,
I was looking at it from the perspective of a non-sailor and what would be most interesting to them.

You and I appreciate a good match race, but probably not most people who do not understand the nuances. Remember, the largest sport in this country is NASCAR and what do they do? They put a lot of cars into a relatively small space and go like hell. That's considered excitement for a lot of people.

I know a lot of sailors don't understand this because that's not their form of entertainment...but Oracle is asking, what would attract an audience? Well, its right in front of their face by doing what NASCAR is doing right to promote their sport. Sure this might upset the Thurston Howell's, but too bad for them.

Has the fact that most people consider yacht racing to be an elitist sport ever helped the sport?

If sailing wants to keep its elitist image then keep on with what it is already with the Rolex sponsorships etc, because that's all who are going to be watching, elitists.

The elitist perception by the public may or may not be true but that's the perception and that's what counts if they want to attract a larger audience.

Maybe Budweiser, Home Depot and Tide should be a sponsor of the next America's Cup? Maybe drop BMW for Chevy?

Less champagne...more beer.

[Joli]

Kind of a side note.... the horizontal lifting surfaces being developed for mono's will probably replace or supplement water ballast and canters. If they can develop the RM that the wide stance of a multi enjoys the performance advantage may be with a mono. Today a V70 canter and an Orma 60 with lifting foils both sail 600 mile days but a V70 is slightly larger.

Originally Posted by tsmwebb

But to be fair the canting keel monos will have multihull like performance and would easily sail in excess of "hull" speed much of the time. Also, it was the cat, not the tri that was limited to very light winds in the last race. As it became clear that SNG were insisting on a very low wind race BMW/O modified to tri for light winds but as originally launched it was capable of sailing in racing weather using only the wind and person power.

Tom

[Joli]

I thought the closeness of the cars and the wrecks were the draw?

Or maybe it's just the infield parties..........

Originally Posted by David M

Joli,
I was looking at it from the perspective of a non-sailor and what would be most interesting to them.

You and I appreciate a good match race, but probably not most people who do not understand the nuances. Remember, the largest sport in this country is NASCAR and what do they do? They put a lot of cars into a relatively small space and go like hell. That's considered excitement for a lot of people.

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by David M

Additionally they need to get rid of the two boat racing...sorry, but how boring if you do not already understand yacht racing?

There are plenty of regattas out there. The med cup has most of the AC players in it and the racing is in well matched boats... TV ratings are? I don't think that fleet racing is the answer. It is far more difficult to figure out who's winning and losing. You need to know the scores of all the boats and by the end of a regatta the winner may well be sailing his competition to the back of the fleet which is going to be hard to explain to the TV audience -- Team X just finished 24th but team Y finished 30th so Team X wins! Anyway, the most fundamental feature of the AC has been that it is a match race. If you want a fleet race why call it the AC?

Tom

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by Joli

Today a V70 canter and an Orma 60 with lifting foils both sail 600 mile days but a V70 is slightly larger.

But average speeds are still significantly higher for the multis. For similar length designed for similar service the results suggest 20+ percent advantage to the multis over the canters. I'm not going to bother to look it up but as I recall the 24 hour single handed record for a 60' tri is still better than that of the fully crewed motorized volvo 70... Foiling will be interesting if it can be scaled up. But true lifting foils are not going to work well on heavy boats so the fastest results will not have keels.

Tom

[Cotemar]

Put a few of these out on a course. At 51 knots you had better have all the video shot from a helicopter

YouTube - Hydroptere Record - 04 Sep 2009

YouTube - Hydroptere - Fastest Sailboat in the World

Mark

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Joli

Today a V70 canter and an Orma 60 with lifting foils both sail 600 mile days but a V70 is slightly larger.

Can you sail the V70 without an engine running? and what are the releative amounts of crew necessary tossail the boats. Not picking a fight just a serious question, like many othet folk, I dont understand how we could allow racing using boats that need motors to SAIL safely