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Old 04-11-2009, 15:46   #31
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True I'll keep quiet.....
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Old 04-11-2009, 16:23   #32
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Must every thread be hijacked nowadays...... sigh

Sorry. All trickle down economics aside, it is the aesthetic that bothers me. The flaunting of wealth. I am all for big projects that employ lots of people. I will shut up now.

Shame about the mast, ay?
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Old 04-11-2009, 17:42   #33
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I didn't and would not disagree with that.

What are you talking about? Why do they then have a huge BMW Oracle sign pasted on their mainsail? Is it for themselves to look at? It is indeed a free country you are free to look at what that company spends money on and pass judgment on it, good or bad.

Sorry, but your first two statements can't be reconciled. In the first, you have agreed that the decision on what to do with earnings is entirely the decision of the entity that earned it. In the second, though Oracle and BMW have freely elected to spend some of their capital on an America's Cup effort, you are reserving for yourself the right to criticize their choice if it somehow doesn't conform to some standard you have cobbled together.

So which is it, do they have the right to spend their capital as they wish or don't they?

But It doesn't and I didn't. What you are getting worked up over is what you think the ethos was behind what I said not what I actually said. I am talking about one company, one boat, one rig, and a few very expensive decisions, not the US or capitalism in general.

Well, just so you know, BMW and Oracle are not "one company," and I had not given your "ethos" a fraction of a second of thought.

Really? Why don't you think on that for a day. Do you really believe that spending $10,000,000 on a rig to race a sailboat is more important than alleviating the hunger of kids? Or even one kid? Say it in a sentence: "I think that a mast and rigging of a racing sailboat is more important than children." That is the sentiment you just conveyed.

No, actually it isn't remotely the "sentiment" I "conveyed." My "sentiment" is that how Oracle and/or BMW choose to invest their capital is nobody's business. If their stockholders are upset with the expenditure, they can mount a proxy fight and replace the Board of Directors, then hope that the new Board will change the management to those who will invest either company's capital in a way that a majority of the stockholders approve of.

Gonna be a tough fight, though, since Larry Ellison owns 22.59% of all the Oracle stock, so unless the disaffected stockholders can secure his proxy, they're facing a daunting headwind, indeed.

What BMW decides to do is their choice. But you get to make the choice whether or not you want to support a company that wastes it's money on crass consumerism and a gross display of wealth. Me, I say it is gross, tacky, tasteless, and gaudy to flaunt one's wealth in public when there are lots of people who have less than you. So I won't buy a BMW, or a Rolex, or a fat gold chain. Because it makes people and companies look like chumps.
Well, that's your opinion. And, on an emotional level, not even an unreasonable one. But emotional reactions seldom result in permanent, positive change when it comes to business matters.

Ranting and railing against the choices these companies made quite some time ago that resulted in the expenditure of $10 million on a carbon fiber mast, one-or-a-kind mainsail and the rigging to support it (for awhile ) may make someone feel better, but it won't change the reality that an overwrought expression of high dudgeon in a cruising forum carries little clout with those at Oracle and BMW who are choosing to invest their capital in another such sail and rig - and, probably, a couple of spare rigs and sails, to boot.

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Old 04-11-2009, 17:58   #34
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So does anyone know yet why the mast fell down in 9 knots.
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Old 04-11-2009, 18:19   #35
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So does anyone know yet why the mast fell down in 9 knots.
From an interview I heard:
"It was 9kts at sea level... but up on the hull its was like 27 knots man, may be 50, or even 100! The skipper lost his toupee! I just shat myself!"
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Old 04-11-2009, 18:41   #36
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So does anyone know yet why the mast fell down in 9 knots.
They're being a little bit coy about releasing anything specific, but indicate they know "the cause." This is from the BMW Oracle Racing Blog:
Quote:
"As far as the overall project is concerned, the new rig platform we were planning to use next week was going to become our main testing stream. In that sense this mast wasn't scheduled to sail beyond this week so it's possible it's only missed two or three days of sailing in its life."

He also said that after holding meetings last night, and looking at the available data, the team has a good idea as to what happened.

"We've had a look at it, but there was nothing really out of the ordinary. The boat was loaded heavily as it always is. The crew push right to the limits that we provide for them and everything was on the edge of the red line which is where we always sail.

"Conditions were perfect so there's no indication that had anything to do with it. It was really just a factor of pushing the boat harder and harder every day and going to new levels of performance and I think that's the direct cause of it. We know that sailing at full capacity is close to the limit. But that's how you have to design and sail these boats."
To read the blog, go to:

BMW ORACLE Racing blog

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Old 04-11-2009, 21:47   #37
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Do you really believe that spending $10,000,000 on a rig to race a sailboat is more important than alleviating the hunger of kids? Or even one kid? Say it in a sentence: "I think that a mast and rigging of a racing sailboat is more important than children." That is the sentiment you just conveyed.
Then say THIS in a sentence: "it is more important that I have this computer I'm typing on than the (the) children". You can take this argument as far as you want - such as choosing to eat a steak instead of beans - you could have sent the rest to "save the children". So, Unbusted, "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones". Until YOU are living in poverty and sending ALL of YOUR money to "save the children", please refrain from hijacking threads to put on your "holier than thou" attitude.

And oh yeah. We own FOUR Mercedes Benz automobiles.
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Old 04-11-2009, 21:58   #38
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OK OK.... Unbusted dropped it lets get on with the thread.....
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Old 04-11-2009, 22:36   #39
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Heard an 'expert' today who said 10 Mil.
Based on the price of the licence fees Oracle charges companies using their products, 10 mil is just a drop in the ocean for leisure suit Larry

On a more relevant OT note... has there been a discussion on the forum about the general direction the Americas Cup is heading with the current Deed of Gift challenge rather than the more traditional, interesting and competitive class based challenge?

Bring back the J class
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Old 04-11-2009, 23:15   #40
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Old 04-11-2009, 23:24   #41
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I'm sure that we all benefit in the end from this type of "take it to the extreme" engineering....the space program...formula one...we gain so much.

I'm glad these big boys have the money to spend on big toys....

I'm just thinking... is that the best engineering that money can buy?

Also..it always amazes me when these type of failures result in no injuries...that 200 ft mast and all its rigging and sails fell on that boat with what, 10-12 guys on board....no injuries is amazing.
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Old 04-11-2009, 23:27   #42
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Drop in guns and politics into this thread and it would be all on

The AC is and always will be contentious in many forms and areas both on and off the water, to the sailors involved and all of us who watch. Hence the posts re the coin spend isn't real thread drift more than it is 'just what happens when you mention the AC'.

With a rumoured 300mil budget 10mil is lunch money to these outfits.

While I also have issues with some of the money spent I also fully realise whatever I say will hold less water in Larry or Berties mind then one square of the toilet paper they use. The money will be spent and some of that plus the new technologies found will trickle down whether we like it or not.

Hoppy, whether what is currently happening with the AC is good or bad would easily be a thread in it's own right and probably good for a 100 odd pages as well
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Old 04-11-2009, 23:57   #43
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Drop in guns and politics into this thread and it would be all on
No - you'd need to throw in Jessica as well

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I'm just thinking... is that the best engineering that money can buy?
I'd have to say that, by their own standards, they got it exactly right. They're trying to push the envelope and find out where the edges are. It's been sailing fine until a few days before they were going to retire it anyway, so they found the edge of the envelope alright! I'd say "breakage" is not a swearword in their design shop, but "over-engineered" most definitely would be . Different strokes for different boats...
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Old 05-11-2009, 00:06   #44
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I like this one...squint your eyes..looks like an old time photo of loggers sittin on a felled tree.





Ha! I saw ya squinting...
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Old 05-11-2009, 01:09   #45
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Until YOU are living in poverty and sending ALL of YOUR money to "save the children"
Actually that is %100 what I am doing right now to the T. Except I send all of my money, and I mean all of it, to PLAN not Save the Children.

My house is not made of glass, it is run down as ****.

But I do hope you feel like more of a man for owning four new cars.

Those are some absolutely stunning pictures. I love and miss point Loma.
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