BMW Oracle Dismasted

[Weyalan]

AC is, particularly these days, about pushing the envelops. Sometimes you push too hard. Ain't nuthin but a thang.

[Pelagic]

Pushing the envelope at 9 knots of wind...???? I think it is more like someone screwed up

[chala]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

I think it is more like someone screwed up

A bit like the last America cup OZ boat. The mast stood up but the boat folded in half, you got to be carefull with these backstay tensionner.

[Blue Stocking]

Destructive Engineering--design downward until it breaks

[Yotboss]

I'm just glad someone with deep pockets and the requisite big ego is willing to do this work. Can you imagine what our boats would cost if the normal boat builders did it all?

[unbusted67]

I hate to say it but with all of the poverty in the world spending that money on a rig is a complete waste.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I hate to say it but with all of the poverty in the world spending that money on a rig is a complete waste.

You're entitled to your opinion, unbusted, but it goes completely against every concept of freedom most people hold. However one earns capital, the decision on what to do with it should be entirely the earner's.

No one is compelled to buy Oracle software or BMW automobiles, but so many people have chosen to do so that both corporations are incredibly successful and wealthy. That they, in turn, have freely chosen to expend their capital on an America's Cup effort is no one's business but theirs.

The argument you've put forth could logically be extended to anything anyone spends money on if it does not directly relieve poverty, including buying a boat, going cruising, buying a computer or joining Cruisers Forum.

But the truth is that if every cent or minute of time were somehow re-directed to alleviating poverty, this would be a very boring world, and counter-productive in the long run.

At least, that's my opinion.

TaoJones

[Red Mantis]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I hate to say it but with all of the poverty in the world spending that money on a rig is a complete waste.

The men and women employed in designing, fabricating, installing, testing, and operating the rig would probably disagree. As would the sailors of the future, who would never see the improvements provided by such research & development efforts.

Best of luck to them. Hope they get things sorted out quick.

[DaveOnCudjoe]

I can't begin to imagine the loads that these guys are dealing with. My tri is less than 1/3 the size of BOR 90 and the thing makes more wierd noises and motions as you approach 20knts than you can believe. I wonder what the main sheet loads are and supposedly the rules do not allow powered winches. It staggers the mind! Dave

[David M]

Here Here Tao! The opportunity to make money is an entrepreneurs incentive for creating things for which there is a demand. Remove that incentive and we cease to have those things along with the jobs that producing those things creates. Remove the opportunity to make money and nobody has the money to help those with less. Money is not a finite pie to be divided up, money is created.

Larry Ellison has a net worth of 22.5 billion according to Wikipedia. I doubt he even flinched.

[sneuman]

At more than 2x the LOA, I would think the thing just collapsed under its own weight.

Seriously, the SA/D on this bugger has got to be way off the charts. That's a tremendous amount of force even under relatively benign conditions.

[John A]

Larry Ellison, the founder of Qracle. is a very interesting person. Rich? For sure, but he had the fortitude to found his company without the help of venture captilist at the very start of the Dot com era. He survived when others did not. His company has just bought Sun Microsystems.

Larry Ellsion has had alot of experience in ocean racing and his boats, with him on board, have been in several impressive ocean races. The infamous Sidney to Hobert being but one of many.

I once anchored in front of one of his yachts at St Barth's one New Years Eve. The Rising Sun, 138 meters long, with 8,000 square meters of living space! A thirty foot power boat patrolled the waters around his yacht, all night. I used 10:1 scope on my chain.

John

[Yotboss]

Last Saturday I was out on the water doing race practice (on a mono - gasp!) and BOR 90 was headed out the bay - at an estimated 10 kts with almost no wind to speak of. We tried to keep up alongside for a bit - she's really an amazing sight. The loads when it pipes up must be insane.

Socio-economically speaking, this program literally floods the area with money, and not all to high-tech snotty-yotti purposes either. The crew buys clothes, rents cars, go out to eat, and on and on... quite a trickle-down that you would expect from any mid-size business. I'm sure some percentage of that cash winds its way to noble purposes, either through taxes or charity. Anyhow, this big rig crash will cost a bunch and around and around it goes...

[unbusted67]

Originally Posted by TaoJones

However one earns capital, the decision on what to do with it should be entirely the earner's.TaoJones

I didn't and would not disagree with that.

Originally Posted by TaoJones

That they, in turn, have freely chosen to expend their capital on an America's Cup effort is no one's business but theirs.TaoJones

What are you talking about? Why do they then have a huge BMW Oracle sign pasted on their mainsail? Is it for themselves to look at? It is indeed a free country you are free to look at what that company spends money on and pass judgment on it, good or bad.

Originally Posted by TaoJones

The argument you've put forth could logically be extended to anything anyone spends money on if it does not directly relieve poverty, including buying a boat, going cruising, buying a computer or joining Cruisers Forum. TaoJones

But It doesn't and I didn't. What you are getting worked up over is what you think the ethos was behind what I said not what I actually said. I am talking about one company, one boat, one rig, and a few very expensive decisions, not the US or capitalism in general.

Originally Posted by TaoJones

But the truth is that if every cent or minute of time were somehow re-directed to alleviating poverty, this would be a very boring world, and counter-productive in the long run.
TaoJones

Really? Why don't you think on that for a day. Do you really believe that spending $10,000,000 on a rig to race a sailboat is more important than alleviating the hunger of kids? Or even one kid? Say it in a sentence: "I think that a mast and rigging of a racing sailboat is more important than children." That is the sentiment you just conveyed.

What BMW decides to do is their choice. But you get to make the choice whether or not you want to support a company that wastes it's money on crass consumerism and a gross display of wealth. Me, I say it is gross, tacky, tasteless, and gaudy to flaunt one's wealth in public when there are lots of people who have less than you. So I won't buy a BMW, or a Rolex, or a fat gold chain. Because it makes people and companies look like chumps.

[TaoJones]

Originally Posted by unbusted67

I didn't and would not disagree with that.

What are you talking about? Why do they then have a huge BMW Oracle sign pasted on their mainsail? Is it for themselves to look at? It is indeed a free country you are free to look at what that company spends money on and pass judgment on it, good or bad.

Sorry, but your first two statements can't be reconciled. In the first, you have agreed that the decision on what to do with earnings is entirely the decision of the entity that earned it. In the second, though Oracle and BMW have freely elected to spend some of their capital on an America's Cup effort, you are reserving for yourself the right to criticize their choice if it somehow doesn't conform to some standard you have cobbled together.

So which is it, do they have the right to spend their capital as they wish or don't they?

But It doesn't and I didn't. What you are getting worked up over is what you think the ethos was behind what I said not what I actually said. I am talking about one company, one boat, one rig, and a few very expensive decisions, not the US or capitalism in general.

Well, just so you know, BMW and Oracle are not "one company," and I had not given your "ethos" a fraction of a second of thought.

Really? Why don't you think on that for a day. Do you really believe that spending $10,000,000 on a rig to race a sailboat is more important than alleviating the hunger of kids? Or even one kid? Say it in a sentence: "I think that a mast and rigging of a racing sailboat is more important than children." That is the sentiment you just conveyed.

No, actually it isn't remotely the "sentiment" I "conveyed." My "sentiment" is that how Oracle and/or BMW choose to invest their capital is nobody's business. If their stockholders are upset with the expenditure, they can mount a proxy fight and replace the Board of Directors, then hope that the new Board will change the management to those who will invest either company's capital in a way that a majority of the stockholders approve of.

Gonna be a tough fight, though, since Larry Ellison owns 22.59% of all the Oracle stock, so unless the disaffected stockholders can secure his proxy, they're facing a daunting headwind, indeed.

What BMW decides to do is their choice. But you get to make the choice whether or not you want to support a company that wastes it's money on crass consumerism and a gross display of wealth. Me, I say it is gross, tacky, tasteless, and gaudy to flaunt one's wealth in public when there are lots of people who have less than you. So I won't buy a BMW, or a Rolex, or a fat gold chain. Because it makes people and companies look like chumps.

Well, that's your opinion. And, on an emotional level, not even an unreasonable one. But emotional reactions seldom result in permanent, positive change when it comes to business matters.

Ranting and railing against the choices these companies made quite some time ago that resulted in the expenditure of $10 million on a carbon fiber mast, one-or-a-kind mainsail and the rigging to support it (for awhile ) may make someone feel better, but it won't change the reality that an overwrought expression of high dudgeon in a cruising forum carries little clout with those at Oracle and BMW who are choosing to invest their capital in another such sail and rig - and, probably, a couple of spare rigs and sails, to boot.

TaoJones