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Old 23-02-2012, 21:17   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sandy daugherty
Disclaimer: I own a PDQ 36 and a Chris White Atlantic 42.
You are evaluating used sandwiches based on the selling price of bread.
You can completely rid your mind of anything you see from a used car pricing guide. Any tangential contact with reality is by pure, fickle chance.
As a recovering Yacht Broker I can assure you that only Gemini has sold enough boats (1,000+) to have a reliable trend in depreciation. Selling prices for Lagoon, FP, PDQ and others fit no curve whatsoever. You would be making a big mistake to draw ANY conclusion about a boat purchase based on a few other purchases.

Any boat is worth exactly what a buyer and seller agree upon. No two boats are alike. You can add up what the boat cost new plus all the additional equipment added plus the cost to add it and the cost to maintain it and you will arrive at a useless number. No matter how stone-cold objective and market savvy a seller is, his price is emotional, and so is yours.

There is a solution: Sail everything you can get yourself invited on, save your money, and at some auspicious point in time what you think you want and what you think you can afford will meet a seller at some acceptable price.

And remember; nobody buys his last boat first.

see also http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...3&postcount=14
EXCELLENT ADVICE.....
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Old 23-02-2012, 21:36   #17
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

If you plan on keeping it 3-5 yrs, I suggest immediately listing it with a broker at closing
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Old 24-02-2012, 09:36   #18
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

There are some great perspectives here!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Cruiser View Post
Sorry long but hope this helps some others out there save some of their hard earned money or get a much larger boat for less.
Cheers,
John
Johnny Cruiser - congrats on your purchase & it sounds like we're thinking alike (choosing a boat can be emotional, but buying it is, after all, a business transaction)

So far, the opinion trend seems to be that it's a pointless exercise to analyze "value" by comparing sale-price numbers alone, because:

1. the numbers are incorrect, or
2. averages don't work because the sample size is too low, or
3. individual boats vary so widely based on upkeep & upgrades so as to have no relationship to "averages"

To play devils's advocate, regardless of where the numbers come from (nadaguides, buc, or soldboats) you could argue that all data suffers from the same bias. In that case, you could still use the data to cross-compare manufacturers/models.

On point #3, there are certainly some outliers, but my guess is that more of them are on the poor-quality end (trashed boats). Assuming that I'm not looking for a "project-boat", and that I will keep her in ship-shape while I own her, it stands to reason that I'd have to budget more than "average" prices (the crap boats having brought that average down). But, there is still going to be *some* relationship to the averages…. a seller that thinks otherwise won't be getting my money, regardless of how much the boat speaks to me. (I'd expect the same thing on the flip side… when it's time to sell)
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Old 24-02-2012, 10:32   #19
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

johnnycruiser, when you refer to the number of Lagoons or FP's on the market versus the number of Gemini's you are comparing apples and oranges - the Gemini is essentially one boat which has received a few upgrades over the years; Lagoon and FP listings and sales represent large lines of boats, no single model of which comes anywhere near the numbers for the Gemini. Do you really think it is appropriate to look at the depreciation figures for an FP Eleuthera 60 when you are considering a Gemini, or PDQ 32 or 36? They have entirely different markets!

This was part of Sandy's point about the relative futility of statistical comparisons, even assuming you could trust the figures that you received for each brand. What is more important, IMO, is his point with respect to no two used boats being the same. The depreciation figures are based upon, I assume, the original list price for a boat and do not take into account the equipment inventory, let alone the condition of the boat. What is the better price for two boats of the same brand and same year - $80K for one that is lightly equipped, has huge hours on the diesel, needs new standing and running rigging, new sails, new canvas, new hatches/portlights, upgraded electronics and ground tackle and is showing signs of osmotic blisters and of abuse/poor maintenance requring hull repairs and a paint job, or one for $110K that has no blisters and an epoxy barrier coat, no signs of damage, low hours on the diesel, new hatches/portlights, recent sails, running and standing rigging, canvas, upgraded electronics/refrigeration, proper ground tackle, recovered cushions and shows as bristol? As Sandy said, NO TWO USED BOATS ARE THE SAME!

What if you are someone who has neither the time, nor inclination to do work on a boat yourself? What if the owner of the well-maintained, pristine boat that is listed for 110K has an emotional attachment (and perhaps, just perhaps a reasonable idea of how rare his boat is) and isn't willing to budge on price? What if you think it is perfect for your needs and, compared to every other boat you have looked at, has hit you both rationally and emotionally as the boat that you wanted (and yes, even color schemes come into play here, don't they?). What if the owner of the junker has no emotional attachment to his boat (and the fact that it is that run-down suggests that he or she never did) and is prepared to drop his price to 70, or even 65K (very low for the model and year)? What is the better buy? Do statistics help here?

I think Sandy has it absolutely right on. Forget the statistics. Search the market both on the net and in person. Sail on the types of boats you are interested in. Speak to both current and former owners of the make and model of boat that you are considering. Read reviews. You will get a feel for the market and will know the right boat for you when you find it. Come to an agreement on price subject to a survey. And yes, the actualy price figure will be a part of the analysis, but when you are comparing apples and oranges, it can and will only be part.

Brad
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Old 24-02-2012, 12:15   #20
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Deck Officer:
Hi John. I love T-buckets. I wasted my high school years doodling them. Good way to learn perspective drawing!

I still have my PDQ because I love her like a prodigal son. The Chesapeake Bay is a huge sailing venue, especially when you draw less than three feet, where three people can drop into water waist deep, and push her off almost anything she can climb under way! I still own her because I have invested far more money, attention, and blood than I could ever recover, and want to do more. She has a dozen uncompleted projects that stopped when I took on the care and feeding of a Chris White Atlantic 42. If the CW sells, I will for sure get back to the unending job of maintaining an older boat. I'll be replacing some of the flooring, all of the glass in the hatchs and windows, and finishing up the most exotic electronics intallation on a vessel under $150,000 on a good day. And she is still for sale, because I haven't bought my last boat yet!!?!

Johnny: My experience (and interest) in catamarans ends at $999,000. Beyond that lies a different world: brokers wear suits and work in professionally decorated offices, and Banks subscribe to appraisal services that actually know what they are doing. They do not look things up in NADA or the Bluebook, because their clientele wouldn't be caught dead in Armani, much less a Lagoon.

Your experience may vary. Your buyer and seller may have inadvertantly used the same appraisal.

I wonder if there is a need for an arbiter in boat sales. Both the buyer would have to sign an agreement to accept the arbitration, and both would agree to accept a price above/below their emotional levels. It would not necessarily mean meeting in the middle because the knowlegeable Arbiter would have knowlege of past sales, how to depreciate equipment, what it would truly cost to bring the boat to an acceptable standard, and how many shoppers are out there looking with real money in their pockets. Tough, Huh! I would nopt be a broker because he is far more interested in his next commission than his good will standing.
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Old 24-02-2012, 13:02   #21
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Sandy,

That is encouraging, as I haven't met any owners of the PDQ 36 that didn't feel the same way as you. For such a simple, unassuming boat, it sure does solicit praise from its owners.

It is some of the little things that appeal to me. I always want a dedicated chart table with room for SSB and storage of charts flat, and I don't think any other 36 footer gives you that. How comfortable is that seat for long term gab sessions on HF?
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Old 24-03-2012, 11:12   #22
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

The Nav seat is quite comfortable. I spend hours there on the computer. I installed two swing out panels there; one above the table that tilts the Garmin 4208 down to be used while seated, the other opens to place the accessory switches withing reach, along with the VHF, stereo, iPod holder, etc. I carry paper charts, but tend to laythem out on the dinette so we can work on them together.

I got Jeff started on the hatches and floor boards yesterday, so I can sail this summer if and when Siesta sells! Those are the two big money honey-do's.
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Old 24-03-2012, 11:19   #23
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Thanks Sandy.

Been trying to join the PDQ forum for quite awhile. It appears nobody is watching over it, otherwise they might have noticed no new members for ages, as the Confirmation code for verifying is just a broken link, so no way to sign up.
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Old 24-03-2012, 12:56   #24
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...the data are crap. NADA and BUC are notoriously bad data for actual boat prices and sale prices. Not associated with reality in any way...

Mark
MostlyHarmless,

I agree with Mark about the data.

Unfortunately, many lending institutions use NADA or BUC values in determining the amount of the loans they grant. This can be significantly less than the market value, especially for a catamaran.

Look for a lending institution that specializes in boat loans, not just one that makes boat loans, or you might not be able to finance that "ultimate boat" of your dreams!

Marshall
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Old 25-03-2012, 19:03   #25
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Our first cat was a PDQ with twin outboards. Hull # 2 an original 34 before they stretched them 2' on the stern. The interior layout was the same as the 36. My wife and I loved that boat. I loved the ease of maintenance due to less systems on the boat. Easy to sail and a boat load of fun.
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Old 29-03-2012, 23:26   #26
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

I use to keep my first boat, a Venture 25 sloop docked on Cradle Creek across from where they built the Gemini. There would always seem to be the smell of mary jane when the wind blew from that direction.Go Figure ...
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Old 30-03-2012, 06:19   #27
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Quote:
Originally Posted by white rabbitt View Post
I use to keep my first boat, a Venture 25 sloop docked on Cradle Creek across from where they built the Gemini. There would always seem to be the smell of mary jane when the wind blew from that direction.Go Figure ...
All it means is that there be Pirates in those waters....

Depreciation aside, the three boats the OP chose to study are completely different boats, which is confusing. What's he going to use the boat for?
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Old 31-03-2012, 11:56   #28
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Re: Better Value - Used Gemini, PDQ, Lagoon?

Johnny, Lagoon has produced about double the boats that Gemini has albeit many models. I got this from Lagoon. Ain't gonna help the analysis unless there is a psycho in front of it.
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