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Old 05-02-2012, 14:51   #121
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Just wanted to let you all know ......


We didn't win the Florida Powerball $200M Lottery. I know .... the shock of it all!

Oh well, we will keep saving up and making improvements in (s/v) Vanora. One day, she will be a big part of our "Cat Kitty."


Darby
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Old 05-02-2012, 14:53   #122
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Just curious, how well does your current boat sail to windward? What kinds of AWA and speeds can you do?
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Old 05-02-2012, 15:55   #123
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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Originally Posted by Michelhhhebert View Post
Dear Darby,'
I think you are focusing way too much on the capacity of going upwind, it seems that even the best cat (within your budget... and mine) will not keep up to your mate's expectation, i have owned 7 mono and now on a cat for 4 years and will never go back to a mono, they are missing a hull you know... the freeflowing between cockpit and saloon is unbeatable (the Freeflow design is not by the way) the possibilty of sitting in the saloon or cockpit no matter what the weather and enjoy a great view, the privacy of your own hull for you and your guests, the ease of access to tihe water, the uninterrupted vue even with the dinghy up... did i mention no healing? Move over to the bright side... you will never regret it
Michelhhhebert "the possibilty of sitting in the saloon or cockpit no matter what the weather and enjoy a great view" Freeflow flow between cockpit and saloon is not same as a Leopard but can hardly be considered not freeflowing. With sightlines set for view through at cockpit seated level and very large dropdown window between galley/cockpit.

cheers
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Old 05-02-2012, 15:57   #124
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Just curious, how well does your current boat sail to windward? What kinds of AWA and speeds can you do?
Good question, I have never sailed a Tartan (the OPs boat) but looking at the design I would think it would be a good wholesome middle of the road type, around similar size production boats of other brands. I can sail to windward as well as similar length (eg 36/38) catalinas, bavarias, benetau (oceanis series) and the like. Same angle same speed hard on the breeze, so yeah I think the question is really valid perhaps the OP simply needs a cat that will sail as well as his current boat to windward and then be quicker and more comfortable off the breeze.
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Old 05-02-2012, 19:02   #125
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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What???? This makes no sense at all.

Mark
I crewed on a cat with a conventional rig and it pointed as high as a little racing tri. I concluded that a fully battened main with its deep belly is not as effective upwind. I motorsail with just the main at 30 degrees to the apparent wind going one to two knots faster then if I were just using my diesels.
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Old 05-02-2012, 20:55   #126
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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I crewed on a cat with a conventional rig and it pointed as high as a little racing tri. I concluded that a fully battened main with its deep belly is not as effective upwind. I motorsail with just the main at 30 degrees to the apparent wind going one to two knots faster then if I were just using my diesels.
OK, but your experience isn't typical of a boat with good sails and a skipper with knowledge to use them correctly. A deep draft isn't caused by full battens and fractional rigs are well-known for windward performance. Your conclusions were drawn on faulty premises. More accurately, you sailed on a cat with good sails and a skipper who knew how to use them and had good performance. Then you sailed on a different cat with blown out sails, and possibly a bad skipper, and had poor performance. The difference wasn't the rig.

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Old 06-02-2012, 08:59   #127
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
OK, but your experience isn't typical of a boat with good sails and a skipper with knowledge to use them correctly. A deep draft isn't caused by full battens and fractional rigs are well-known for windward performance. Your conclusions were drawn on faulty premises. More accurately, you sailed on a cat with good sails and a skipper who knew how to use them and had good performance. Then you sailed on a different cat with blown out sails, and possibly a bad skipper, and had poor performance. The difference wasn't the rig.

Mark
From: ‘The Ten Commandments of Buying a Catamaran’ by Phillip Berman

"After sailing and racing multihulls for over 30 years I can say with absolute confidence that—all things being equal—trimarans and monohulls are quicker upwind than catamarans. They generally sail a good five to seven degrees higher. I can also say with equal confidence that a daggerboarded catamaran sails considerably faster and makes far less leeway upwind than a catamaran with keels. In fact, daggerboarded cats point nearly as high as most monohulls and sail much faster upwind."
On the downside, if you run up on a reef with daggerboards and damage them along with your saildrives and rudders you can expect to have to haulout and spend thousands repairing the damage. Have you looked into the cost of insurance? Do you know what will happen if you submit a big claim? With keels you can expect to add a little gel coat and bottom paint the next time you haul out. Personally I chose to go without insurance and in spite of six hurricanes, I have managed quite well.

Caribsailor
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:23   #128
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

I don't see the connection with Berman's opinions and your claim that full batten mains and fractional rigs prevent cats from sailing upwind well.

Many mono and tris have full batten mains and fractional rigs.

And Berman's caveat of "all things being equal" does not include any details of what equal means. I'm sure he doesn't mean to say that a Morgan OI will sail upwind better than an Outremer.

Also his statement of sailing 5-7 degrees higher is without explanation. Is he referring to VMG or to heading? VMG is the only valid criteria to use - I can point our cat directly into the wind, but I won't be faster than everyone else who is pointing lower.

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Old 06-02-2012, 11:14   #129
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

In Gregor Tarjans excellent book Catamarans, The Complete Guide for Cruising Sailors he talks about starting about 30 minutes behind the fleet in the Around Long Island race and passing every single boat on the first upwind leg. That would be in a Outremer 45. Plus there are more references to these boats' fantastic performance. Yes, he's an Out dealer but as I've said before try racing one and yes, I posted this before. The new Out 49 is a great boat but not as fast due to a more modern execution. One thing I have noticed is that just about all of the ones for sale are totally loaded. It's like when they ordered them they checked every box on the option list. Still, I want one.
I think that Phil Berman was referring to most of the keel cats when he made that statement. These daggerboard cats are totally different breed. Even the fairly heavy modern Catanas will do very well on all points of sail.
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Old 06-02-2012, 13:46   #130
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Keel vs boards has been discussed numerous times here on CF. There has never been dispute in the performance advantage of dagger boards on catamarans. To me, the only issue is the attention you must pay, while using them. The last big catamaran that become a photo op for the anti catamaran crowd was a boat racing on the great lakes with boards down which went over in a squall in the middle of the night, when most of the crew were asleep.

Dagger board catamarans can....and do... trip on their boards, while keel equipped boats will crab to unload the sails. In a cruising boat, I firmly believe this is preferable while in a racing boat, dagger boards are a necessity.
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:17   #131
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caribsailor View Post
From: ‘The Ten Commandments of Buying a Catamaran’ by Phillip Berman

"After sailing and racing multihulls for over 30 years I can say with absolute confidence that—all things being equal—trimarans and monohulls are quicker upwind than catamarans. They generally sail a good five to seven degrees higher. I can also say with equal confidence that a daggerboarded catamaran sails considerably faster and makes far less leeway upwind than a catamaran with keels. In fact, daggerboarded cats point nearly as high as most monohulls and sail much faster upwind."
On the downside, if you run up on a reef with daggerboards and damage them along with your saildrives and rudders you can expect to have to haulout and spend thousands repairing the damage. Have you looked into the cost of insurance? Do you know what will happen if you submit a big claim? With keels you can expect to add a little gel coat and bottom paint the next time you haul out. Personally I chose to go without insurance and in spite of six hurricanes, I have managed quite well.

Caribsailor
Kind of a silly statement - "All things being equal" when you are comparing completely unequal boats. Equal length? Equal displacement? Equal cost? Equal purpose?

I have a daggerboard equipped cruising cat, and so far no cruising monohull has even come close to matching us upwind. But then apart from one the same design, the other cruising multi's we've encountered so far haven't kept up either.

Certainly there are boats that will, and more, but we haven't run into them yet.
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:28   #132
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

[QUOTE=44'cruisingcat;881075]Kind of a silly statement -

.
I'm kind of new to this forum but am surprised at the lack of "cruisers sensitivity" of some of the contributors.
Clearly "all things being equal ..." was expressing a personal opinion and cling it silly seems, well, silly.
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:29   #133
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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Keel vs boards has been discussed numerous times here on CF. There has never been dispute in the performance advantage of dagger boards on catamarans. To me, the only issue is the attention you must pay, while using them. The last big catamaran that become a photo op for the anti catamaran crowd was a boat racing on the great lakes with boards down which went over in a squall in the middle of the night, when most of the crew were asleep.

Dagger board catamarans can....and do... trip on their boards, while keel equipped boats will crab to unload the sails. In a cruising boat, I firmly believe this is preferable while in a racing boat, dagger boards are a necessity.
But with the boards up, a daggerboard boat will sidelsip even more easily than a minikeel one. So arguably, in extreme conditions, when you would certainly have boards up, they will be safer.

Fact is, the vast majority of boats that get "sailed over" are involved in racing. And most racing boats have daggers - because they are faster.

But racing sailors have a completely different approach to cruisers. For one thing racers actually AIM to fly a hull, because flying a hull is faster. We aim to NEVER fly a hull, nor even get anywhere close.
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:32   #134
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

[QUOTE=mmichaelbrown;881083]
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Kind of a silly statement -

.
I'm kind of new to this forum but am surprised at the lack of "cruisers sensitivity" of some of the contributors.
Clearly "all things being equal ..." was expressing a personal opinion and cling it silly seems, well, silly.
Well explain to me how all things can be equal on entirely UNEQUAL boats?
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:34   #135
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Simply said, I would never characterize your opinion as silly on a public forum no matter how silly I might think it is ... but, I sense I drift and that this topic may be of little interest to the community.
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