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Old 09-02-2012, 06:32   #166
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Originally Posted by Gary russell View Post
Yes upwind cats with boards will always point higher then those with fixed keel.and I agree catana
A lot of people have made the same comment that upwind the boards are better. I believe this to be a misunderstood aspect of the boat design. It is true that most boats with boards will be better upwind than those with LARS - but is that because they are designed as a performance catamaran, or is it due to the use of boards.

The only way to tell is to have two versions of exactly the same catamaran built, one with boards, and the other with LARS. To the best of my knowledge, the only craft with two versions is one of the Woods designs, and in a head to head, the difference was not especially significant upwind.

Where it was more significant was downwind in light airs, where the significant reduced wetted area allowed the board boat an advantage.

Where you need to make a decision is whether you want a performance boat and are willing to take the penalty of weight restriction in order to cruise. There are crossover designs such as the St Francis, and Maverick which try to keep a happy medium.
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Old 09-02-2012, 06:37   #167
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
The only way to tell is to have two versions of exactly the same catamaran built, one with boards, and the other with LARS. To the best of my knowledge, the only craft with two versions is one of the Woods designs, and in a head to head, the difference was not especially significant upwind.
I believe LeRouge designs models with both as options. I have seen an earlier Privilege with boards that was the exact same boat as the keel model. Chris White may have designed models with both.

I have no idea how they compare to each other.

Didn't I read somewhere that White has started using keels instead of boards because he didn't find much advantage of the boards? Or maybe it wasn't a keel, but some other foil device - he has been experimenting a lot lately.

Mark
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Old 09-02-2012, 07:44   #168
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Shame Richard Woods won't post on CF any longer. He's very good on this subject..among others. A while back the moderator crew had no idea who the boat designers were and well let's just say the designers aren't here any longer. Richard wrote a very good catamaran hull design article, found on my website, which has very good insights.

The only board equipped cat I've sailed was a short trip (standard 3 hour tour) on one of his designs, on a Woods Transit 38. Which had more interior room than some 40 foot cats I've been aboard.

I'd have to take exception to Talbot's observation as the upwind performance of that boat was absolutely astounding in light winds. I guess having Richard Woods trimming sails for me didn't hurt. Also, his dagger board design was interesting as it only took a small amount of effort to raise and lower the boards.

Being a die hard anti-boards kind of guy, I was very surprised and now oh so confused!
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Old 16-02-2012, 12:22   #169
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

1998 Catana 411 listed today for $217,000. One of the best priced Catanas on the market.
Catamarans for sale
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Old 16-02-2012, 13:14   #170
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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1998 Catana 411 listed today for $217,000. One of the best priced Catanas on the market.
Catamarans for sale

Wow, that sounds great. There's a 1991 42' Catana here for $234K. Seems to me they all used to be a lot more money.

Catana 42 for sale by owner
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:00   #171
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

I don't understand the discussion either, my last transatlantic on my Eleuthera 60 was mostly upwind ( north route east to west) and we pointed just fine, even better than my last full keel monohull. Pointing is determined by the keel and deep angle of the jib. I use to put the genoa sheet on the staysail track to get a better angle on my cutter.
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Old 16-02-2012, 16:44   #172
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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I don't understand the discussion either, my last transatlantic on my Eleuthera 60 was mostly upwind ( north route east to west) and we pointed just fine, even better than my last full keel monohull. Pointing is determined by the keel and deep angle of the jib. I use to put the genoa sheet on the staysail track to get a better angle on my cutter.
Yes people are a little confused here between vmg and pointing ability. As we all know pointing high into a short steep sea is not necessarily the quickest route to a windward destination.

Pointing high under autopilot (cruising) is only going to lead to stalling, and the occaisional unplanned tack. The rig and sail set determines a boats pointing ability, the keels/hullshape/boards/rudder size etc determine the vessels leeway, along with the skill of the crew the result is the vmg to windward. Boards are only one factor.
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Old 17-02-2012, 12:13   #173
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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1998 Catana 411 listed today for $217,000. One of the best priced Catanas on the market.
Catamarans for sale
Check out the Phisa 42 there are still 2 on the market( 1 less after me) they are the 401 mould bought off catana in hard times and lengthened and lightened. You can get 5 years old for 1/3 more than the much older catana. Sure you don't get the name but catana were worried enough to buy the mould back and leave a space for their 2 tonne heavier version.

Phisas are the best priced catanas on the market IMHO
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Old 18-02-2012, 04:58   #174
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Originally Posted by MIRELOS View Post
I don't understand the discussion either, my last transatlantic on my Eleuthera 60 was mostly upwind ( north route east to west) and we pointed just fine, even better than my last full keel monohull. Pointing is determined by the keel and deep angle of the jib. I use to put the genoa sheet on the staysail track to get a better angle on my cutter.
You got it.
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Old 18-02-2012, 05:10   #175
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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Going ..... Going ..... Gone LOL

VMG. Got it. Apparently, this is my husband concern for having a cat that can sail upwing, as he wants to wants to circumnavigate just as his parents did for 11 years.

Thanks guys!
Darby
Just one observation Darby,...when you husband first gets on a cruising cat he will NOT have that seat of the pants sensation of 'going to weather'. If there is one thing missing in the cruising cat experience it's this powerful feeling you get when you are rail down going to weather...it's missing in a cruising cat, and therefore he might not feel as though the cat is weatherly, whether it is or not. He may have to rely on instrumention and navigation to tell the true story,...or of course sailing along with any well sailed vessel in the vicinity.
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Old 26-02-2012, 03:59   #176
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Here is our situation:

1.What is the best catamaran for sailing blue water AND for sailing upwind?

2. Am I correct in assuming that the best catamaran for sailing upwind WILL have daggerboards?

Thanks all!
Darby
We have an Outremer 40/43 with dagger boards.. I can sail to about 44 degrees true wind .. Sadly they no longer make these but the new 49 sails just as well though it is more upright.. (bricklike).. Pro's the 40/43 sails like a demon and everything can be handled by two .. Cons very small inside .. the 45 and newer designs have much more room.. Did I mention fast?

Look up the Outremer Cup .. It is held every May at Le Grande Motte where Outremer are built..
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Old 26-02-2012, 04:57   #177
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

On of the interesting bits about boards comes into play in big seas. You can lift the boards so that the boat will slip sideways held only by the rudders.. that helps her to turn and run down the wave and with less wetted area there is less drag to you can surf..
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Old 26-02-2012, 10:09   #178
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Interesting article by Phil Berman.

Can a catamaran really sail upwind?
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Old 26-02-2012, 10:24   #179
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Interesting article by Phil Berman.

Can a catamaran really sail upwind?

Very good article. Thanks Bob!

Darby
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Old 26-02-2012, 12:04   #180
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Very good article. Thanks Bob!

Darby
For the most part, there are only four things you can do to greatly improve the upwind performance of cats beyond making them super light, lean and long:
  • You can reduce weight aloft by purchasing a carbon fiber mast and light, high-tech shrouds, as this not only provides a lighter and stiffer rig, but reduces the fore and aft pitching moment that so inhibits upwind performance in catamarans.
  • You can purchase a very costly, custom, fully rotating rig that enables you to rotate the mast directly into the eye of the apparent wind when sailing close hauled or reaching.
  • You can upgrade your sails from Dacron to some sort of Mylar or Kevlar product that allows your sailmaker to create a much stiffer sail that will not distort under the heavy loads a catamaran is subjected to while sailing upwind.
  • You purchase a catamaran with daggerboards.
OK I may be bragging... BUT ....
Tomahawk has all of these... except the high tech standing rig..

The thing is that I didn't have her built. I was very lucky to come across her.. here in the UK ... She is everything I could ever want in a boat
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