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Old 08-02-2012, 15:01   #151
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
How old are your sails? It sounds like they are out of shape. Your problem is certainly not the fully battened main and small jib.

Every boat goes to windward well when motorsailing. Heck, some even do it with no mast or sails at all.

Mark
I can motorsail thirty degrees to the apparent wind at eight knots in wind too light to sail in. Which means I can move to windward comfortably in light seas rather than taking a pounding while sailing 45 to 50 degrees to the apparent wind in fifteen to twenty knot winds and eight ft. seas. It's an easy choice. At 15,000 lbs loaded (travel lift wt) my cat performs more like a power boat and there are no waterline to boat speed constraints. I had her up to 14.5 knots during a St. Maarten round the island race for single handers.
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Old 08-02-2012, 15:24   #152
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Cape Dory, Morgan OI, and Columbia 45 are all in the 'crab crusher' category--how does your cat do upwind against the 12 meter, or a performance cruising mono??
With all due respect - better than yours. Seriously though, I can point as high and sail as quick as a similar cruising mono, think jennaue bendy toe hunter bavaria etc. Of course off the breeze, even as slightly off as say 60 apparent - I move away from them.
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Old 08-02-2012, 15:44   #153
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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......I'm a catamaran guy now (L-43) and feel that in that case the twin engined cat, motor sailing to windward still trumps the mono ... but that is really a personal, not necessarily popular opinion.
I'm too cheap to motor sail,

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When I first bought my cat I was disappointed when I couldn't sail nearly as close to the wind as monohulls. I concluded it was due to the fully battened main and the small jib. I was also annoyed to find that wind gusts on the large main would make the cat rould up and go into irons. Then I discovered how well I could go to windward motorsailing. I no longer sail to windward if I can avoid it. My best point of sail is on a broad reach with the main double-reefed and the oversize gib sheeted outside of the sidestay...
Everyone's best point of sail is broad reaching, I hve a very very large roach main and a small self tacker jib and have never been in irons, I think your experience may indicate hull shape and rudder design issues as much as it does sail plan issues.

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I can motorsail thirty degrees to the apparent wind at eight knots in wind too light to sail in. Which means I can move to windward comfortably in light seas rather than taking a pounding while sailing 45 to 50 degrees to the apparent wind in fifteen to twenty knot winds and eight ft. seas. It's an easy choice. At 15,000 lbs loaded (travel lift wt) my cat performs more like a power boat and there are no waterline to boat speed constraints. I had her up to 14.5 knots during a St. Maarten round the island race for single handers.
I can sail at 5 knots in 8 knots true wind at about 40 degrees. There appears to be a theme with the bigger french boats that they motorsail a lot? I have never had a L or FP overtake me but I didnt think that they had to motorsail to windward?
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Old 08-02-2012, 18:47   #154
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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With all due respect - better than yours. Seriously though, I can point as high and sail as quick as a similar cruising mono, think jennaue bendy toe hunter bavaria etc. Of course off the breeze, even as slightly off as say 60 apparent - I move away from them.
With all due respect, I doubt it. The PHRF numbers take the guesswork out of comparing boatspeeds. They are based on the timed outcome of a bunch of races, rather than bar talk. They say that on an average course the Bendytoy 456 will be almost 2 minutes (174 seconds minus 60 seconds) per mile faster than a Seawind 1160. That means that if the Seawind is going 6 knots, the Bendytoy is doing 7.4 knots. It also means that a Gemini 105C at 255 rating will be doing 5.3 knots.
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Old 08-02-2012, 19:01   #155
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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With all due respect, I doubt it. The PHRF numbers take the guesswork out of comparing boatspeeds. They are based on the timed outcome of a bunch of races, rather than bar talk. They say that on an average course the Bendytoy 456 will be almost 2 minutes (174 seconds minus 60 seconds) per mile faster than a Seawind 1160. That means that if the Seawind is going 6 knots, the Bendytoy is doing 7.4 knots. It also means that a Gemini 105C at 255 rating will be doing 5.3 knots.
Are you saving you will achieve that performance out of a beneatu 456 under cruising conditions or stripped out for racing ?
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Old 08-02-2012, 19:14   #156
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

The problem with PHRF, particularly the New England ratings, is that they are highly dependent on the number of samples of the boats in races. And for racing sleds, or under-represented boats, the PHRF numbers are often assigned based solely on what some committee "feels" like they should have.

Now, I'm not arguing the speed potential of any specific boat or class of boat with the above statement. I'm just passing on my experience of 18 years in the New England PHRF world. And I can tell you that the number of Catanas, Seawinds and Outremers in that world are rarified indeed.

Particularly the Outremers and Seawinds. In 18 years of living in New England - and owning a catamaran and always on the lookout for other cats - I have seen 1 Outremer and 0 Seawinds. Geminis are much more common and Catanas are rare, but around.

Catamarans in general are rare in New England. We drew crowds when we brought one there in 2003 - but they quickly became more prevalent. However, prevalent is a relevant thing in New England.

Mark

Edit: I just looked at that list again. I know the Columbia 45 very well and no way will it sail to that PHRF rating. I also know the J/46 and it is getting hammered too. I suspect these numbers came from single boats raced very well and skillfully in one or two races that favored them. I highly doubt there was a large sampling for them. I know I would not be happy with those ratings if I had those boats.
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Old 08-02-2012, 19:55   #157
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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With all due respect, I doubt it. The PHRF numbers take the guesswork out of comparing boatspeeds.
You would actually buy a boat based on PHRF numbers?

Hey... I got this bridge for sale over here....
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Old 08-02-2012, 20:02   #158
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Clearly there are Monohull purchased that way if you are a racer not a cruiser.

Catamarans, no that I can see. There are more important matters.
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Old 08-02-2012, 22:05   #159
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post
With all due respect, I doubt it. The PHRF numbers take the guesswork out of comparing boatspeeds. They are based on the timed outcome of a bunch of races, rather than bar talk. They say that on an average course the Bendytoy 456 will be almost 2 minutes (174 seconds minus 60 seconds) per mile faster than a Seawind 1160. That means that if the Seawind is going 6 knots, the Bendytoy is doing 7.4 knots. It also means that a Gemini 105C at 255 rating will be doing 5.3 knots.

Brother you are DREAMING if you think PHRF ratings are that accurate - or even close to that accurate. The only PHRF ratings that get close at all have many years of racing of like boats, in all conditions.
With the advent of cruising catamarans, over time, we might get close - eventually. Not now, tho - not even begun, really. And anyhow, one mans 1160, set up with a minimum load (not ready for a cruise) can crush the next guys Leopard 45 that is ready to head out. Those details, like course layout, age of sails, sea state etc., not to mention the sailors involved make all the difference in a race.

Apples and oranges.
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Old 08-02-2012, 23:07   #160
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Way back in this thread, when it was slightly remotely connected to the theme, I was chastised for drifting ...
Wow, this seems bore like flipping and jumping from the original question posed by Darby.
By the way, I jut noticed that horse has been dead for a long time!
Michael
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Old 09-02-2012, 02:11   #161
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

I definitely would consider PHRF rating as a factor in buying a boat, as I'm performance oriented, as is the OP. As pointed out, handicaps for crusing multihulls are rare, and probably not as accurate as the mono ratings, because there just aren't as many racing. However, there is more data than the last time I checked and hopefully there will be more in the future, as it is easy to figure out that a J46 will be a better performer than a Columbia 45.

I got some of my multihull info from the BAMA database, which is predominantly small and fast cats and tris. BAMA recommends that multihulls & monohulls should not be scored in the same section or division in any competitive event. I included the mono PHRF's in an attempt to compare them to the OP's Tartan 37 experience. There are differences in PHRF ratings of up to 30 seconds/mile between New England and San Francisco, partly because the San Francisco boats usually race in more wind.

The other issue is whether boats sail to their ratings or not. Usually if they don't, they stop racing, or whine at the PHRF committee until their rating gets changed. Boats loaded for cruising don't perform to their ratings which always assume they are stripped. However, monos are generally better able to carry the cruising loads than multi's.

Its tough finding comparable data for cruising multis--for example there is an Outremer 55 in Lake Michigan that rates 54, but never starts the races its registered for. I did find some data --the Banderas Bay regatta Sailwave results for Banderas Bay Regatta - Vallarta Yacht Club
is a low key event where both monos and multis went the same course, and are probably in cruising or semi-cruising configuration.

The Catana 47 went an average 4.26 knots in the first race with 10 knots of wind, and 5.4 knots in the second with 13 knots of wind. This appears to be comparable to 6.1/ 6.4 knots for a Beneteau 42, 4.5/5.6 knots for a Columbia 43, and 3.9/5.1 knots for the Catana 39S. The ratings used for that regatta were
Catana 47-----95 sec/m
Catana 39S----82
Beneteau 42---78
Columbia 43----120
There was a Farrier F-9 in the race which went a bit better at 5.0/6.3, but I'm not sure it is in the blue-water cruiser category.

One regatta doesn't settle the issue, but it appears to me that the cruising cats are going to disappoint going to weather or around the cans, which may be the reason you don't see many of them racing.
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Old 09-02-2012, 02:22   #162
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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One regatta doesn't settle the issue, but it appears to me that the cruising cats are going to disappoint going to weather or around the cans, which may be the reason you don't see many of them racing.
Where you are - there are plenty racing where I am.

Hers a one regatta anecdote, Seawind 1160, 306 mile ocean race, arrived at end within minutes either way as two MUMM 36 stripped racing sleds.

Ive said it before I will say it again, I will get to windward as well as a similar length cruising mono with similar sail plan, and pull away off the breeze. I will put money on it.
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Old 09-02-2012, 02:37   #163
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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I'm curious to know just how many of you doling out advice in this thread started out in multihull dinghies?
I started sailing in 1962 on a neighbors 12 ft catamaran and soon bought a Hobie 10 monohull and after a couple of years hauling it on top of my Pinto car I traded up to a Hobie 16. I took an absnce from sailing while riding horses in the backcountry of Washington state's Cascade Mountains. Got back into sailing with my current #2 wife who started sailing at 3 months with her parents on Sunday family raceing. We bought a trailerable monohull and used it for about 3 years when I desided to do what my dad said to do with some inhearentence cash so we bought sv We Be Jammin 1.5 years ago an 02 Gemini 105Mc. We lived aboard for over a year and bussiness got too busy so we moved closer to work by about 12 miles ( lots less gas ) and now we just enjoy sailing when were at the boat instead of having computers aboard, + we sail every good windy day at least 2 days a week in the winter months and more in summer.
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Old 09-02-2012, 05:45   #164
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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With all due respect, I doubt it. The PHRF numbers take the guesswork out of comparing boatspeeds. They are based on the timed outcome of a bunch of races, rather than bar talk. They say that on an average course the Bendytoy 456 will be almost 2 minutes (174 seconds minus 60 seconds) per mile faster than a Seawind 1160. That means that if the Seawind is going 6 knots, the Bendytoy is doing 7.4 knots. It also means that a Gemini 105C at 255 rating will be doing 5.3 knots.
Yes, totally correct. The Jervis bay sailing club in NSW has mixed fleet races with a smattering of seawinds and mono hulls competing even though they are listed in seperate divisions . The seawind 1000xl is about the same speed around a course as the much smaller Northshore 27 mono hulls. The results are on their website for all to see, from memory.

The op may find this an interesting avenue to explore.

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Old 09-02-2012, 06:24   #165
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

So put your money down my friend
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