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Old 06-02-2012, 14:41   #136
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Umm, you already did:

[QUOTE=mmichaelbrown;881083]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Kind of a silly statement -

.
I'm kind of new to this forum but am surprised at the lack of "cruisers sensitivity" of some of the contributors.
Clearly "all things being equal ..." was expressing a personal opinion and cling it silly seems, well, silly.
In reality, multihulls are faster than monohulls on ALL points of sail. If you look at the extreme racing end of the spectrum that is.

From there down the spectrum, it all really depends on what you define as equal doesn't it?
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Old 06-02-2012, 14:47   #137
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

I agree with everything you say. The only point I would ad to this thread to Darby (looking for good upwind performance) is that there is one situation, and one only I can think of, where Pointing ability trumps VMG, and that is where you are clawing off a lee shore, in a bay ... clearing the point might make the difference. I'm a catamaran guy now (L-43) and feel that in that case the twin engined cat, motor sailing to windward still trumps the mono ... but that is really a personal, not necessarily popular opinion.
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Old 06-02-2012, 15:05   #138
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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Originally Posted by mmichaelbrown View Post
I agree with everything you say. The only point I would ad to this thread to Darby (looking for good upwind performance) is that there is one situation, and one only I can think of, where Pointing ability trumps VMG, and that is where you are clawing off a lee shore, in a bay ... clearing the point might make the difference. I'm a catamaran guy now (L-43) and feel that in that case the twin engined cat, motor sailing to windward still trumps the mono ... but that is really a personal, not necessarily popular opinion.
With the budget of the OP daggerboard cats may (will) be hard to manage and a reliable shaft driven adequately powered cat could give the upwind performance if upwind performance is really required.

I note 44C's question as to the upwind performance of OP's current mono has not been answered.
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Old 06-02-2012, 16:05   #139
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

[QUOTE=mmichaelbrown;881083]
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Kind of a silly statement -

.
I'm kind of new to this forum but am surprised at the lack of "cruisers sensitivity" of some of the contributors.
Clearly "all things being equal ..." was expressing a personal opinion and cling it silly seems, well, silly.
Hi mmichaelbrown,

Welcome to the forum! Maybe it wasn't clear because it was a quoted passage, but Phil Berman is a professional sailor, author and major multihull broker. He can definitely handle a lack of cruisers sensitivity - if he even cares at all!

Mark
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Old 07-02-2012, 18:36   #140
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

dear downunder,
If you want to convince yourself or anybody else with these pictures... you guys down under seem to smoke some really good stuff...
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:29   #141
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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I don't see the connection with Berman's opinions and your claim that full batten mains and fractional rigs prevent cats from sailing upwind well.

Many mono and tris have full batten mains and fractional rigs.

And Berman's caveat of "all things being equal" does not include any details of what equal means. I'm sure he doesn't mean to say that a Morgan OI will sail upwind better than an Outremer.

Also his statement of sailing 5-7 degrees higher is without explanation. Is he referring to VMG or to heading? VMG is the only valid criteria to use - I can point our cat directly into the wind, but I won't be faster than everyone else who is pointing lower.

Mark
When I first bought my cat I was disappointed when I couldn't sail nearly as close to the wind as monohulls. I concluded it was due to the fully battened main and the small jib. I was also annoyed to find that wind gusts on the large main would make the cat rould up and go into irons. Then I discovered how well I could go to windward motorsailing. I no longer sail to windward if I can avoid it. My best point of sail is on a broad reach with the main double-reefed and the oversize gib sheeted outside of the sidestay...
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Old 08-02-2012, 08:36   #142
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Wow,

I have never had any of those issues in our Cat.
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:12   #143
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caribsailor View Post
When I first bought my cat I was disappointed when I couldn't sail nearly as close to the wind as monohulls. I concluded it was due to the fully battened main and the small jib. I was also annoyed to find that wind gusts on the large main would make the cat rould up and go into irons. Then I discovered how well I could go to windward motorsailing. I no longer sail to windward if I can avoid it. My best point of sail is on a broad reach with the main double-reefed and the oversize gib sheeted outside of the sidestay...
How old are your sails? It sounds like they are out of shape. Your problem is certainly not the fully battened main and small jib.

Every boat goes to windward well when motorsailing. Heck, some even do it with no mast or sails at all.

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Old 08-02-2012, 10:34   #144
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Re: Best Upwind, Blue Water Cat?

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... I was also annoyed to find that wind gusts on the large main would make the cat rould up and go into irons. ....
Your rigging needs to be tuned. Start by tightening your forestay
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:25   #145
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

I'm curious to know just how many of you doling out advice in this thread started out in multihull dinghies?
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Old 08-02-2012, 11:49   #146
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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I'm curious to know just how many of you doling out advice in this thread started out in multihull dinghies?
I learned to sail in a normal sailing dinghy among the Thimble Islands in Connecticut. I knew nothing of multihulls at that time. However, I sailed on numerous monohulls starting with that old dinghy, and ending on the 12 meter yacht "True North".

As you know, once you've made the move to a catamaran, it's tough going back to a mono yet I still regularly sail with friends on their monohulls, from a Cape Dory 28' to a Columbia 45. The cut away forefoot keel Cape Dory can definitely out point me, however a Morgan Out Island 36' and the Columbia (shoal draft) are roughly equal going to windward depending on wind strength.

One day I raced that Columbia 45' for 15 miles in 20 knot winds. He beat me by barely 10 minutes even though I was giving up 20 feet of LWL. For comparison, in 20 knots of wind I average between 7 to 8 knots.
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Old 08-02-2012, 12:11   #147
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

We are always sailing up wind and do really well at it in our 02 Gemini 105Mc and prices are around $100,000.00. I know there listed as a costal catamaran but several couples have cyrcumnavicated recently.
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:23   #148
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamif27 View Post
I'm curious to know just how many of you doling out advice in this thread started out in multihull dinghies?
I started out in mono dinghies (up to Lightnings and C-scows) with an occasional flirt with a Hobie 16 once in a while.

But I don't see how that relates to understanding what it is like out cruising or when one's sails are blown out - mono or cat, which is the advice given here.

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Old 08-02-2012, 14:49   #149
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tropic Cat View Post
I learned to sail in a normal sailing dinghy among the Thimble Islands in Connecticut. I knew nothing of multihulls at that time. However, I sailed on numerous monohulls starting with that old dinghy, and ending on the 12 meter yacht "True North".

As you know, once you've made the move to a catamaran, it's tough going back to a mono yet I still regularly sail with friends on their monohulls, from a Cape Dory 28' to a Columbia 45. The cut away forefoot keel Cape Dory can definitely out point me, however a Morgan Out Island 36' and the Columbia (shoal draft) are roughly equal going to windward depending on wind strength.

One day I raced that Columbia 45' for 15 miles in 20 knot winds. He beat me by barely 10 minutes even though I was giving up 20 feet of LWL. For comparison, in 20 knots of wind I average between 7 to 8 knots.

Cape Dory, Morgan OI, and Columbia 45 are all in the 'crab crusher' category--how does your cat do upwind against the 12 meter, or a performance cruising mono??

New England PHRF ratings

Crab Crushers
Cape Dory 28----219
Morgan OI 41----195
Columbia 45------174

OP's boat
Tartan 37--------129

Performance Cruisers
Outbound 44--------90
Beneteau First 456--60
J46-----------------39

Catamarans
Gemini 105--------177
Catana 431-------96
Seawind 1160-----174
Outremer 55-------60
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Old 08-02-2012, 14:53   #150
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Re: Best Upwind , Blue Water Cat ?

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Cape Dory, Morgan OI, and Columbia 45 are all in the 'crab crusher' category--how does your cat do upwind against the 12 meter, or a performance cruising mono??
Why don't you buy one and discover first hand??

There's one for sale in the Carolinas on my website and she has the rare twin diesel option.

You know cruising boats don't race. .. We cruise... The subject wasn't racing it was pointing ability.

So, first,why did you ask that question? 2nd, how am I supposed to answer it???
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