Best complimentary second anchor?

[Fortress]

Hi Mark,

Don't shoot the messenger, this was just what I have heard firsthand!

Also, there seems to be a trend among cruising sailors to replace their "old generation" anchor with a massively over-sized "new generation" model, I suspect to provide an additional margin of safety for all bottom conditions.

Safe anchoring,
Brian

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by colemj

Maybe a wide variety of Chesapeake bay weekenders, but our observations out cruising have been that newer generation anchors have pretty much taken over. Visiting consignment places like Bacon's, etc show piles of old gen anchors gathering dust, while the only new anchors being sold are new gen types.

I can imagine sales of new anchors are new gen type... but I don't actually see lots of boats with replacements. Assuming our marina -- or even someplace like Herrington North -- are at all representative...

And FWIW, Bacon's got a lot of everything gathering dust, not just anchors.

I know of no Rocnas/Mantus/Mansons in our own marina -- unless an occasional Fleming visitor has one mounted that I can't see from here. One guy just mounted a new stainless Ultra, though, partly 'cause he saw them on the Flemings so had to have the same bling.


Down at Herrington I saw a very few Rocnas... even one SuperMAX which sorta surprised me... but mostly Danforths (and some Fortresses), CQRs and Deltas. It's a huge place and I didn't walk every dock, though.

-Chris

[Jman]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Was the engine disabled? Why were you moving backwards before the anchor touched bottom?

-Chris

As he said he was racing. Trying to stop backward movement with an anchor is acceptable under racing rules - kedging and of course use of you engine are not.

I think the more important take away from the idea of a Danforth type "Sailing" - is that many people think of them as their light weight - throw it overboard in an emergency anchor. For example your engine is not working and you are being pushed onto the beach - so it appears that it is no good to rely on one for that purpose.

[colemj]

I think the massively oversized bit is a fallout from ancient anchoring memes. Back then, everyone was calling for oversizing anchors, and that has carried on to this day.

The main quantitative difference is that older sizing tables were jokes, which made over-sizing necessary just to get to "right" sizing. The new gen anchor sizing tables are realistic, if not conservative, so over-sizing is not necessary, but it is still done out of habit.

I don't think the extra size is the bit that allows these anchors to cover almost all bottom conditions. If that were the case, the old gen anchors would act the same way, and there would never have been an "arsenal" meme. For example, our primary is "normal" sized, but still has been exceptional in all bottom conditions so far.

I do agree, however, that many are proudly carrying around moorings, and not anchors. Whatever lets one sleep well…

Mark

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Jman

As he said he was racing. Trying to stop backward movement with an anchor is acceptable under racing rules - kedging and of course use of you engine are not.

I think the more important take away from the idea of a Danforth type "Sailing" - is that many people think of them as their light weight - throw it overboard in an emergency anchor. For example your engine is not working and you are being pushed onto the beach - so it appears that it is no good to rely on one for that purpose.

Ah. Racing, got it, didn't understand that part.

I haven't been trying to dispute the "not setting" outcome, just trying to see if there's a way to tell at what weight a Danforth (or Fortress) might not even reach the bottom (sail, kite, whatever). Seems to also be a function of boat movement/speed... wonder if weight or speed is more at play in those situations.

In any case, I've noticed a significant difference between performance of a 7-lb Danforth and a 15-lb Fortress (FX-23); the former was relatively useless for that particular application, whereas the Fortress worked well. I'd assume a 15-lb Danforth would have worked significantly better than the 7-lb version.

In that case, the light Danforth was not well-matched to the boat.. but even so, it never "sailed" -- IOW, it always reached the bottom. Perhaps because the boat was never moving during the initial stage of deployment.

OTOH, it was also too small, so the boat engine could pull that particular Danforth out even after it was set (as well set as it was gonna get)...

-Chris

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I can imagine sales of new anchors are new gen type... but I don't actually see lots of boats with replacements. Assuming our marina -- or even someplace like Herrington North -- are at all representative...

And FWIW, Bacon's got a lot of everything gathering dust, not just anchors.

I know of no Rocnas/Mantus/Mansons in our own marina -- unless an occasional Fleming visitor has one mounted that I can't see from here. Down at Herrington I saw a very few Rocnas... even one SuperMAX which sorta surprised me... but mostly Danforths (and some Fortresses), CQRs and Deltas. It's a huge place and I didn't walk every dock, though.

-Chris

Yes, as I noted earlier, the Chesapeake is a bit of an outlier. Danforth styles work well in the mud there, and not many boats are anchored or cruising full time (if they are, the winters must be hell). Pretty much all boats there go out for an overnight or two anchor in a protected cove at most. Many of them run from marina to marina on weekends.

But the take away there is that one pretty much knows exactly what bottom one will consistently have, the anchorages are mostly 360* protected, one usually is only anchored for a day or two, and one is rarely more than a couple of minutes away from a marina or better protected anchorage when the exceptionally well-forecasted weather turns.

However, go to where full-time cruising boats are traversing widely different areas, and you will find older gen anchors becoming rare in favor of new gen. For example, the last time we were in Shelter Bay Marina Panama (a temporary stopping point for cruising boats transiting the canal and cruising far and wide), I walked the docks and counted anchor types. About a third of them were Bruce/CQR/Delta - with CQR being very rare, and many of the Bruce and Delta being secondary anchors to a new gen primary.

Yes, Bacon's is a dusty place. But consider their piles of old gen anchors and why they have piles of them on consignment at all. The most likely answer is that those anchor's previous owners moved to something else and couldn't easily sell their old anchor, so left it on consignment. I doubt they were changing to a shinier CQR. Go to Sailorman's or Marine Consignment Intl, or similar, and you see the same thing.

Mark

[barnakiel]

Boat 8m.

We survived for ages on a 10 kg bruce (knock-off) as the primary and a 10 kg danforth (knock-off) as our secondary. We have upgraded to 15 Bruce as our primary since then (to gain fluke area).

In retrospect, I think if you ever envision rowing off the second (which I often did) in an inflatable dinghy, you DO NOT want a sharp edged one (anchor, not dinghy ;-)). Probably keep the sharp one on the bow (say a Spade, A Delta or anything) and use a smaller bruce as your secondary. But if your dink is hard or else if you never row off the second then any style will be great choice - we were most happy with our danforth and I would take a Guardian/Fortress as a sure bet if your cruising grounds are sand or thick mud.

Bueno. Too many choices and mostly good ones.

Have fun,
b.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by colemj

Yes, as I noted earlier, the Chesapeake is a bit of an outlier. Danforth styles work well in the mud there, and not many boats are anchored or cruising full time (if they are, the winters must be hell). Pretty much all boats there go out for an overnight or two anchor in a protected cove at most. Many of them run from marina to marina on weekends.

But the take away there is that one pretty much knows exactly what bottom one will consistently have, the anchorages are mostly 360* protected, one usually is only anchored for a day or two, and one is rarely more than a couple of minutes away from a marina or better protected anchorage when the exceptionally well-forecasted weather turns.

Yes, Bacon's is a dusty place. But consider their piles of old gen anchors and why they have piles of them on consignment at all. The most likely answer is that those anchor's previous owners moved to something else and couldn't easily sell their old anchor, so left it on consignment.

Yep, good assessment of the Chesapeake situation. Oddly, we do still find folks who think an under-sized Delta is the greatest thing since sliced bread, though. I think that's "use the anchor that came with the boat" syndrome.

I do also see -- mostly sailboats, aside from our local Fleming fleet -- with two anchors mounted on the bow... as if they're more long-distance cruisers, at least at one time or another. Still mostly CQRs and Danforth in that setup. Occasional Danforths (and less occasional, Fortresses). I suspect many haven't been out the Bay in a while, though.

I think a big part of Bacon's stock comes from parting out dead boats... so in that case, maybe not an overly-conscious decision to change anchors.

-Chris

[rabbi]

On our last boat we had a 24kg bugel knock-off similar to yours (bought at SVB) that worked very well on an overloaded Lagoon 410, so a much more massive boat than yours. It replaced a CQR that had poor holding power. The bugel literally set every time on the first try, except in thick weed. Plus we had a britany as secondary.

With this setup We spend almost a year at anchor in the med and caribbean. It never ever dragged, it just digged deeper into the substrate under load. Routinely anchoring in 30kn with peak gusts in the 45kn.
The only complain was the weight and size of the secondary to lug around in the dinghy. We only used it as a stern anchor as i don't buy the compexities of 2 anchors or changing anchors based on substrate or moon phase.


We now have a Mahe 36, which is just a bit larger and heavier than your boat. We currently have a 20kg kobra (came with the boat) which just works ok. Three days ago we had 30-35kn consistent and downhill gusts reaching 40kn or maybe a bit more. The anchor dragged roughly 5m in a situation where i would have expected a similar sized bugel to just dig deeper and not drag at all.
The kobra sometimes does not set if we pull to hard on it. We have to go slow in reverse, wait until it starts to dig in and slowly apply more power driving it in. The bugel was more foregiving in this regard.

We again carry a britany as an emergency anchor. Its not really a secondary because it never left the locker.
For stern anchor we now have a small stainless 5kg bruce. We only use it to keep the bow pointed into the swell in calm conditions and its much much easier to bring out in the dinghy. Light and no sharp corners. It also serves as the dinghy anchor when the 2kg grapnel is too small.

So i would be happy with the bügel and fortress!

And for better sleep at night check out advanced anchor apps for your smartphone. These apps are way better than normal anchor alarms.
We have an android phone dedicated to an app called anchor alert. The good thing is that its activated after you have deployed the anchor and not in the middle of the process. with the anchor fully set you can point the phone in the direction of the anchor, enter the scope you have out and the app knows where the anchor is. You can add exclusion zones to be alerted if you drift over the anchor after a windshift, allow the boat to drag a few meters intk certain directikns, have sms alerts to another phone if you are in town, etc.
It gives great piece of mind to know that the phone will alarm as soon as the anchor starts dragging. We have it running every day, and know it works as we routinely forget to shut it down before leaving the anchorage.

BTw: Currently its howling 35 kn here in northern sicily and the forcast is a bit more for tonight. At leats its dry hot wind from the sahara.

[Franziska]

Hey Rabbi,great input.

What is the precise anchor app you use? Title & Publisher please.

If I get another backup I have settled for a 16kg Kobra II in addition to the Bügel which I have already.
Still, note well your comments on it.
Manson Supreme, Rocna and Mantus seem great but the prices are almost 3times higher than the Kobra II which has usually similar test results.

My past experience with the Kobra I underlines this choice.
I usually have 3anchors with me on bigger trips, and had situations where this allowed me to sleep better :-D

Btw. If the Mahe would not be way out of my price range, she would be the boat I would get.

Cheerio and enjoy the warm weather,here it is close to freezing.

Franziska

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

............. Oddly, we do still find folks who think an under-sized Delta is the greatest thing since sliced bread, though. I think that's "use the anchor that came with the boat" syndrome

.....................Still mostly CQRs and Danforth in that setup. Occasional Danforths (and less occasional, Fortresses). I suspect many haven't been out the Bay in a while, though.

Chris,

Astute observation, also made by someone earlier.

I got "caught" by a bozo just two weeks ago with just this "setup" OEM. Later indications were his backing around the anchorage dragging his Delta, but since he'd earlier dragged into me in 15 knot winds, I already knew he was clueless. He'd also had this bewildered look on his face, like, "How come this guy anchored downwind of me is moving closer to me?"

Why people think those anchors, which have maybe half the fluke area as the new gen anchors do, make any sense is beyond me.

Which gets to your second point: they come with the boat and people marina-hop, and those with old gear don't use it (anymore).

Thanks.

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Was the engine disabled? Why were you moving backwards before the anchor touched bottom?

-Chris

We were racing and in a yacht that means not using the engine. Sometimes in a yacht race it can be necessary to anchor to stop going backwards with the tide. It was around 35 years ago. There was probably a light head wind and we were rounding a container wharf in a strong tide; guessing, at least 3 knots. Yachts tend to drift sideways and perhaps the current was stronger deeper, where the keel was. Also the sails were up of course so we must have been going backwards faster than the water flow. That spot can be quite turbulent. Doubtless we should have sailed a different course. The anchor never touched bottom. It streamed forward. That is in relation to us trying to go forward.
The anchor was a Danforth and the flukes must have been forced upwards by the current. On the other hand, possibly a CQR might have been pushed downwards by the water flow if you can imagine pulling one backwards.
Likewise perhaps Rocna etc etc.

35 years ago there were virtually only Danforth, CQR, and Fisherman.
Fisherman were not favoured as the chain could snag the point that sticks up. OK for fishing in rocks. I did have one for that purpose 40 years ago and it snagged while fishing under some rocky cliffs. We didn't have an anchor winch on our then 24' yacht. We tightened up and eventually the rising tide pulled it free but it's round shank was bent near the join with the 2 flukes.
A strong modern anchor would likely still be down there, though I like them.

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

He'd also had this bewildered look on his face, like, "How come this guy anchored downwind of me is moving closer to me?"

At least he was bewildered. We have experienced people standing on their sterns upwind of us screaming at us about our dragging anchor as our boats are quickly moving toward each other!

Mark

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by Jman

As he said he was racing. Trying to stop backward movement with an anchor is acceptable under racing rules - kedging and of course use of you engine are not.

I think the more important take away from the idea of a Danforth type "Sailing" - is that many people think of them as their light weight - throw it overboard in an emergency anchor. For example your engine is not working and you are being pushed onto the beach - so it appears that it is no good to rely on one for that purpose.

Quite so. At least in our opinion.

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by colemj

At least he was bewildered. We have experienced people standing on their sterns upwind of us screaming at us about our dragging anchor as our boats are quickly moving toward each other!

Mark

Yes it happens. I'd been accused of dragging into the wind. So I had to move and was glad to.
Other boats dragging can be the biggest hazard of anchoring, that even having the "best" anchor on your own boat won't prevent.