Best complimentary second anchor?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

What I had experienced when I used to use a Danforth was once they drag for whatever reason they don't dig in again.

Ah. The times I've heard the word "sail" in this context wasn't about dragging across the bottom; it was about remaining suspended in the water above bottom level as the boat moved (or the rode was shortened)...

That discussion was about a very lightweight Fortress, maybe whatever their smallest model was at the time.

-Chris

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Franziska

The Fortress I have is medium size. See attachment.

The situation when it turned into a kite was in a tidal channel 4-5kn at about 8m (24ft) depth.
We had to temporarily abandon our primary and I dropped the Fortress while drifting with 40m (120ft) rode.
It did not catch.

FX-16 maybe? Can't tell from photo...

In any case, by "kite" are you meaning it went to the bottom but didn't set? Or that it remained suspended in the water above the bottom as you moved?

I interpreted "kite" as the latter, the same as "sail" that I've heard in this context before.

But if you just meant it hit the bottom and didn't set the first time... yep, anchors will do that.

-Chris

[Franziska]

Can't say for sure as the water was murky.
It did not feel like it was touching the bottom.
Felt like flying/sailing.

By the way, I also have experienced the tremendous holding power of a large Fortress in shallow water with soft bottom.
Force 8-9 behind a cape in the Med. No big waves though and a different boat.

It's a good anchor once set proper.

Not sure what size mine is exactly though.

[cwyckham]

[QUOTE=Guy;1936205]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

I'll take that as a good test. Though to be able to see both anchors you must have been almost over the top rather than having say 40' of chain / warp out.

I was in the water with a mask. There was 50' of chain out and 12' of chain between the 25kg rocna and the FX-23. It was a very hard bottom and the fx dug in better than the rocna.

This is super interesting, Guy. I think that your conclusions, though, may be a bit extreme. Perhaps the answer isn't that tandem anchoring doesn't work, but rather that the scope to the first anchor must be relatively large and the ratio of the scope to the first anchor to the length of chain between anchors must also be large.

With a 10:1 storm scope and just a few feet of chain between the anchors, you wouldn't have lifted the Rocna very far and it might have held on. If the distance between the anchor attachment points was 4', then the Rocna attachment point would have been lifted 4.5". Still not ideal.

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Ah. The times I've heard the word "sail" in this context wasn't about dragging across the bottom; it was about remaining suspended in the water above bottom level as the boat moved (or the rode was shortened)...

That discussion was about a very lightweight Fortress, maybe whatever their smallest model was at the time.

-Chris

If the flukes are pointing up, a Danforth type anchor will sail up. If the flukes are pointing down it will likely dig in. As I earlier wrote; years ago when racing and being carried backwards by the tide in a friends yacht we tried anchoring with a Danforth and it streamed out in front of us as the tide took us backwards at around 3 knots around the end of a container wharf. Strange but true. Maybe 35 years ago and it was the boats main anchor; not a lightweight racing anchor.

[Franziska]

Sounds pretty much like what I experienced...

Sent from my C6603 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by Guy

In beautiful clear water about 10' deep I watched our Rocna with an FX-23 in tandem. The FX-23 would dig in, the chain came taught and the rocna would lift straight up. The tip was hardly touching the bottom.

I was just checking what I could find about the Vulcan and surprisingly I found an article about tandem anchoring by Peter Smith. You can take it with a grain of sand if you like but it's interesting reading.
Two to Tandem: Maximizing Holding Power by Tandem Anchoring
I think I got that right. It did make me decide that the concept is too complicated to consider if a 50 knot gale is expected soon.

[model 10]

The Peter Smith story was interesting. It seems I could have done things differently. His retrieval method is way to complicated for our boat. I just haul up the second anchor (FX-23) and chain by hand.

[GrahamHO]

Originally Posted by Franziska

Sounds pretty much like what I experienced...

Sent from my C6603 using Cruisers Sailing Forum mobile app

Yep. And it's the way they control submarines, and aircraft. In my case at least the tide must have had a greater pull on the yacht than the anchor. Maybe there was also a little wind but not sufficient to sail against the tide?? Better to try to understand than to say it can't happen.

So hypothetically if you lower a Danforth type and you are already going backwards, the flukes might be pushed forward at the top by the water pressure as the anchor hangs. Then the water pressure will keep it like that with the flukes pointing up creating a lifting hydrofoil. Strange but true.

[thinwater]

Practical Sailor has a series of articles coming on 2-anchor rigs, with quantitative results using several anchor types (new, claw, pivoting fluke) anchors in different rigs and different combinations.

Hint: except on rocks, 2 anchors in-line finished last every time. It is not stable, even with long scope. The math and the real world agreed. It would be nice if it worked, it "feels" like it should, and we even wanted it to work. It never did. Do your own testing, wait for the wind to shift in a good blow (or even just back down hard at an angle), and watch what happens. I watched a 10-pound Northill pull a 35# Manson Supreme and 15 KG Rocna right out.

Rocks were a different story, and I believe tandem success stories in rocks.

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by Fortress

Franziska,

You should have the Mud Palms installed on your Fortress anchor, as they will help it set faster in any type of sea bottom.

The Mud Palms are a set of two metal plates that bolt on to both sides of the Crown, which is the center part of the anchor. They will lift the back end of the anchor up so that the Flukes take a more aggressive angle into the sea bottom.

If you don't have the Mud Palms, then send me a PM with your address and I will ship you out a set.

Please find below an image of the anchor with the Mud Palms installed.

Be safe,
Brian

Damn, now that is what I call customer service. I definitely see a fortress or 2 in my future

[Cavalier MK2]

[QUOTE=GrahamHO;1936480]If the flukes are pointing up, a Danforth type anchor will sail up. If the flukes are pointing down it will likely dig in. As I earlier wrote; years ago when racing and being carried backwards by the tide in a friends yacht we tried anchoring with a Danforth and it streamed out in front of us as the tide took us backwards at around 3 knots around the end of a container wharf. Strange but true. Maybe 35 years ago and it was the boats main anchor; not a lightweight racing anchor.[/QUOTE

There is a skill set for setting a Danforth, first some chain should be used, second if drifting the line should be payed out so it stays slack allowing the anchor to drop to the bottom. Setting from a stop you can fly it forward flukes first paying out the line to control the set.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Practical Sailor has a series of articles coming on 2-anchor rigs, with quantitative results using several anchor types (new, claw, pivoting fluke) anchors in different rigs and different combinations.

Hint: except on rocks, 2 anchors in-line finished last every time. It is not stable, even with long scope. The math and the real world agreed. It would be nice if it worked, it "feels" like it should, and we even wanted it to work. It never did. Do your own testing, wait for the wind to shift in a good blow (or even just back down hard at an angle), and watch what happens. I watched a 10-pound Northill pull a 35# Manson Supreme and 15 KG Rocna right out.

Rocks were a different story, and I believe tandem success stories in rocks.

Wow. That is super interesting. I can't wait to read it

Chris - SailMentor.com

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Fortress

- While new generation anchors have made some inroads into the sailing market, it was clear from our visitors and from the sailboats on the docks that there are still a wide majority of sailors who rely on Bruce, CQR, and Delta for their primary anchors.

- The most experienced of cruisers almost always had an arsenal of anchors aboard, and typically multiple types to insure that they had "the right tool for the job."

Safe anchoring,
Brian

Maybe a wide variety of Chesapeake bay weekenders, but our observations out cruising have been that newer generation anchors have pretty much taken over. Visiting consignment places like Bacon's, etc show piles of old gen anchors gathering dust, while the only new anchors being sold are new gen types.

Perhaps we don't have enough experience yet, but we have never found a need for an arsenal of anchors. Although we do carry a Fortress and Spade, we have never needed to use them to supplement or replace our primary Rocna in seven years of full time anchoring in a wide variety of bottoms and conditions. I suppose if we were anchoring in boulders we might want a grapnel, but our Rocna would probably work just as well for the one sleepless night we would stay in such an area.

Really - this "arsenal of anchors" thing is a meme carried over from days that just aren't relevant anymore in any place other than extremely, and unlikely, specialized areas.

Noelex's anchor thread has shown countless examples where when his Mantus is marginal, everything else has failed. There have been no exceptions to this.

Mark

Mark

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

If the flukes are pointing up, a Danforth type anchor will sail up. If the flukes are pointing down it will likely dig in. As I earlier wrote; years ago when racing and being carried backwards by the tide in a friends yacht we tried anchoring with a Danforth and it streamed out in front of us as the tide took us backwards at around 3 knots around the end of a container wharf. Strange but true. Maybe 35 years ago and it was the boats main anchor; not a lightweight racing anchor.

Originally Posted by GrahamHO

So hypothetically if you lower a Danforth type and you are already going backwards, the flukes might be pushed forward at the top by the water pressure as the anchor hangs. Then the water pressure will keep it like that with the flukes pointing up creating a lifting hydrofoil. Strange but true.

Was the engine disabled? Why were you moving backwards before the anchor touched bottom?

-Chris