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Old 11-10-2015, 15:03   #16
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

We sailed around the world with a Manson Supreme, a Danforth Hi-Tensile, and a Fortress. Used the Manson all the time, the Danforth once (as a kedge), and the Fortress not at all. Have as many anchors as you want, but good anchors are expensive (crummy anchors are cheap but not worth what you pay for them) and take up space and add weight.
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Old 11-10-2015, 17:40   #17
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

Didnt sail around the world but my main anchor was a Manson Supreme, second a Danforth Hi Tensile, and third - stored in the lazarette - a large inexpensive Danforth copy. Never had to use the second or third anchors.
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Old 11-10-2015, 20:40   #18
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
That would be a Fortress, and she already has one.

Mark
Now if we do the math on a fortress we come up with light weight + large area = tendency to sail at the faster drift of multihulls. Gee, that's what Fran experienced. Adding extra chain to make up for it defeats the light weight concept so I'd suggest using a Danforth high tensile. Lots of good test data out there to read.
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Old 12-10-2015, 02:02   #19
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

Like others have suggested, I think you are good with what you have, unless you wanted to replace your primary with something bigger, but given no windlass that may not be a good idea.

The days of needing multiple anchors for different bottom types because none of the available anchors worked all that well, seem to be gone. Though they don't always work, the latest generation of anchors (Rocna, Spade, Bugel, Manson, ... ) all work reliably in almost all conditions. The times when they don't you are probably better moving than trying a backup (usually smaller anchor). The exception might be in soft mud were a Fortress might make enough difference to be worth trying.

Particularly given you have a boat that you want/need to keep light, I'd suggest the biggest recent generation primary anchor you can handle, then a second smaller anchor that can be used as a temporary primary if you lose your primary and can be easily handled in the dinghy for use in rare circumstances as were you need a kedge or a second anchor to stop swinging etc. For the secondary it depends on your storage options, but I'd go with a modern anchor like your primary (maybe in Aluminium like the Spade) or a Fortress/Guardian.

Seeing as you already have a Bugel and a Fortress, from my recent experience (25,000 miles through the Caribbean, Med and S Pacific in the last 3 1/2 years) you are all ready to go with respect to anchors. In that time, anchoring 90% of the time, we've never used or needed anything but the Rocna on our bow roller as our primary anchor, and have pulled out our smaller aluminium Spade on just a handful of occasions when we needed a secondary anchor to stop us swinging. We do also have a very large Fortress that we used once as a third anchor, but in hindsight we would have been better not bothering with it.

Mark.
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Old 12-10-2015, 04:41   #20
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cavalier MK2 View Post
Now if we do the math on a fortress we come up with light weight + large area = tendency to sail at the faster drift of multihulls. Gee, that's what Fran experienced. Adding extra chain to make up for it defeats the light weight concept so I'd suggest using a Danforth high tensile. Lots of good test data out there to read.
How well does a Danforth break down for stowage? I see no reason to add a Danforth or another Fortress to be a substitute for a primary - as the OP stated intentions.

Having a multihull, and a Fortress, and a Danforth, I can tell you from real experience and not theory that none of your above suppositions bear out in the real world. If the boat is drifting so fast that a Fortress sails, so will the Danforth. That extra little bit of weight just doesn't overcome the flat fluke area. We have found absolutely no case in the real world where the Danforth had an advantage over the Fortress. In all cases, the Danforth brought with it significant disadvantages (such that it is no longer on the boat).

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Old 12-10-2015, 05:52   #21
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

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Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
Had already a situation where the Fortress turned into a kite.

What model (weight) Fortress was that?


I've not experienced that with either of the two Fortress models we've used...

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Old 12-10-2015, 06:48   #22
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

If you're looking for an anchor that will spend almost all its time in a locker, then pick up a Used Lewmar CQR for almost nothing. It'll get you by just fine in a pinch.

That's what we have in our locker, the ex primary when we upgraded to an Ultra which is basically almost the same as yours. We also have a Fortress 55 that's been used only twice in four years.

So... I'm basically recommending our setup.
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:47   #23
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

California West Coast cold water with kelp , experimenting and using a CQR / Danfort / Bruce /Mason Supreme . hands down the Mason Supreme has been my choice for both primary and secondary anchor . third anchor is a Danforth . The single flute cuts threw the kelp and goes all the way to the bottom and not just sits on the kelp . 45 lbs main anchor and 35 lbs secondary on our 38 ft Seawind cat .
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Old 12-10-2015, 10:47   #24
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

http://www.sailmagazine.com/diy/anchor-test-in-the-chesapeake-bay//Here is a recent Fortress test observed by Sail mag in the soft mud bottoms where the Danforth style has a edge. There is no question that this model of Fortress has the highest holding power. The Danforth HT comes in second giving it the bang for the buck award. This style is also good for gravel and sand, in eel grass other things penetrate better.
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Old 12-10-2015, 11:35   #25
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

We have a Fortress 55 to be used as a kedge. I really don't understand how or why this model merits such high praises, it would never hold anyplace here in Sardinia in the weed and hard sand bottoms. Sure, it holds great in mud and sand, but what anchor doesn't?

Like I said earlier to the OP, save your money buying a secondary by just getting a used whatever, maybe even something for free. Snorkel around different anchorages, eventually.... you'll find one down there. I found a fishermans anchor around a month ago.

It 's going to spend the next 10 years in a locker anyway.
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Old 12-10-2015, 11:45   #26
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

There are a few specialty anchors for particular bottoms. The South Australia coast has a lot of limestone beds with heavy weed. The spade wouldn't be great and the Fortress wouldn't work at all on this.

The most popular anchor here is a locally built "Marsh" anchor as per below photo. Admiralty anchors also hold better than most other anchors on these bottoms. Neither are much use in soft bottoms but you already are prepared for that.

Depending on your cruising grounds they may be worth considering.
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Old 12-10-2015, 13:15   #27
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Franziska View Post
I'm looking for a versatile second anchor which should possibly cover holding ground in which the spade (edit Bugel) excels less good.
I agree a long distance cruising boat should, ideally, have a good general purpose second anchor to replace the primary in the event of loss.

A Fortress is a great anchor to use as a kedge or stern anchor, but I agree with your assertion that it is not an ideal substitute for a lost primary anchor.

The Bugel, or so called Bugel copy as you have, is a good primary anchor (if the anchor's geometry and balance are a OK) , but the newer generation concave roll bar anchors such as the Mantus, Rocna, Manson Supreme have improved on the fundemental design of the Bugel in several ways such as:
  • Concave blade
  • Larger fluke area
  • Wings or skids to increase the angle of attack of the tip during initial setting
  • A shaped fluke area with more weight towards the tip and less at the back of the
    fluke
  • A lighter high tensile steel shank

I think your best solution in your case would be to replace your Bugel with one of these anchors. Keep the Bugel as your back up primary anchor. You will have a good general purpose back up with your existing Bugel and significantly improve the holding power for the vast majority of the time when using the new anchor.

I realise that without an anchor winch, and on sailing a cat, ground tackle weight is important but I would give some thought to increasing the size. 15kg on a 35 foot cat is on the light side for what you have in mind.

My suggestion would give you two, in many way similar, roll bar anchors (although one with a flat and one with a concave blade). Some feel that any back up primary anchor should be of a very different design. Most of this is old generation thinking when anchors only performed in a very narrow range of substrates.

Those that advocate carrying different anchors designs are very sketchy concerning how you decide which substrates are the best for each particular design. If we take the excellent, concave roll bar anchors (Mantus, Rocna MS) versus the very different concave ballasted non roll bar anchors (such as the steel Spade) both are excellent, but which is best in which substrate? There seems no consensus.

Choosing a convex plow anchor like the Kobra is very different again. While it is a good anchor, in my opinion, it would be likely to be worse in all (or virtually all) substrates.

That does not mean there is not a place for specialist anchors like the Fisherman for very dense weed (with a hard substrate underneath) or a Danforth like design for very soft mud, but these anchors have a lot of other drawbacks. There is also a real danger of misjudging the substrate and using these specialised anchors in an unsuitable location.
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Old 12-10-2015, 14:22   #28
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

Seems others have had Danforth / Fortress sail like a kite. Once in a yacht race in a friends yacht, the wind died and we started to go backwards in a tidal rip. Tried to anchor with a Danforth and it streamed out in front not reaching the bottom.

Once I was anchored with a large genuine Danforth in sand. Overnight a cold front with over 40 knots came through and the wind changed about 270*. We were just fine but when I pulled the Danforth up, it's shank was bent through almost 90*. The Fortress appears to me to have stronger shank than the Danforth.

I'm planning to buy a Vulcan as I'm impressed with the design but untried by me. They have a hole in the front to attach a buoy rope or another anchor. My plan is to use the Vulcan but if I'm expecting a blow, I'll shackle my Fortress in tandem, in front, on a couple of metres of extra chain. That should prevent the Fortress turning into a kite.

I was once anchored in over 50 knots with just a Fortress which held on fine. It was a muddy bottom and about 3 metres deep at low tide. I didn't sleep much that night. The noise was like riding down the back of a jumbo jet. We were in a tidal creek and the wind blew along it.
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Old 12-10-2015, 15:07   #29
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

What NOLEX77 said.
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Old 12-10-2015, 17:36   #30
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Re: Best complimentary second anchor?

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Originally Posted by darylat8750 View Post
What NOLEX77 said.
+1

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