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Old 17-11-2014, 17:50   #46
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
FWIW...

There is some current and very troubling material about Maverick on another forum.

We too were initially impressed with the Maverick and test-sailed one while in Cape Town. Subsequent events made us very happy we did not proceed there; those same events leave us now inclined to find the current troubling reports to be credible.
It goes to show we have been off line for the longest time. Mostly use the scatty internet we can find on remote islands for posting news and the blog. Dirk, do we have more info on that then? I am sorry to hear this as we really thought they had something going for themselves there! Rudi is a mate on Facebook as is Phil Southwell the architect ... they are such wonderful people with terrific intentions ... so I am obviously saddened by the news. I know at one stage there was a bit of a financial difficulty, but they overcame that with some foreign funding or investment I believe! I did hear this through a third party though, so don't take my word for it.
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Old 17-11-2014, 18:23   #47
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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It goes to show we have been off line for the longest time. Mostly use the scatty internet we can find on remote islands for posting news and the blog. Dirk, do we have more info on that then? I am sorry to hear this as we really thought they had something going for themselves there! Rudi is a mate on Facebook as is Phil Southwell the architect ... they are such wonderful people with terrific intentions ... so I am obviously saddened by the news. I know at one stage there was a bit of a financial difficulty, but they overcame that with some foreign funding or investment I believe! I did hear this through a third party though, so don't take my word for it.
Go to the unmentionable multihull forum, brings new light to the Maverick being a quality product.
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Old 17-11-2014, 20:37   #48
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Go to the unmentionable multihull forum, brings new light to the Maverick being a quality product.
The unmentionable multihull forum is current down. Should be back up in a day or two. Apparently upgrading and changing hosts.
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Old 18-11-2014, 09:32   #49
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Hmmm ... respectfully said ... not really the case ... unless I am misunderstanding you here?

Are you referring to a boat that has been IN a charter fleet or to a used one that is of the same model made for charter companies but not chartered?

Point in case - There are plenty of people for example searching for 440's and are prepared to pay a premium for GOOD USED ones ... many folks right here on CF ask me all the time when I am going to sell ... I've even had some great offers!

Ok .. we are an owner version which is not for the charter fleet, but being a world cruiser, I would most certainly be looking for a boat (not in a charter fleet) that is heavily sold for charter work ... reason being that spares are more readily available for these around the world. I would pay a premium for that feature alone!
You understood me correctly, and my point comes from actually buying such a catamaran, privately used in very good condition, better equipped than charter boats, priced at a very small premium over the x-charter boats.

Had an interesting discussion with a guy who bought an 2007 model Antares 44. We both have had our boats for 6 months both cruising full time.

My 2008 Orana 44 clearly had much less use. 800 engine hours vs. his 3000+. He needed to do a lot of fix on his boat including new sails over the first 6 months of ownership where the only thing that broken on mine is a lantern lightbulb and a batten fitting. His been around the world, mine looks like unused inside.


I bought mine for 1/2 of new price. I know what he paid and if I assume his was roughly 2x mine new, he paid 2/3 for new price.

Who did the best deal. Not sure. But the original owner of my boat took a big financial hit on very little use.

Note: This are real deals when someone actually wrote a check. Sometimes things work a little different then.
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Old 18-11-2014, 16:24   #50
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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You understood me correctly, and my point comes from actually buying such a catamaran, privately used in very good condition, better equipped than charter boats, priced at a very small premium over the x-charter boats.

Had an interesting discussion with a guy who bought an 2007 model Antares 44. We both have had our boats for 6 months both cruising full time.

My 2008 Orana 44 clearly had much less use. 800 engine hours vs. his 3000+. He needed to do a lot of fix on his boat including new sails over the first 6 months of ownership where the only thing that broken on mine is a lantern lightbulb and a batten fitting. His been around the world, mine looks like unused inside.


I bought mine for 1/2 of new price. I know what he paid and if I assume his was roughly 2x mine new, he paid 2/3 for new price.

Who did the best deal. Not sure. But the original owner of my boat took a big financial hit on very little use.

Note: This are real deals when someone actually wrote a check. Sometimes things work a little different then.

What this tells me is that there is a much bigger demand for the Antares 44. The waiting line for a new Antares is quite long where a FP is more mass produced.


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Old 18-11-2014, 18:05   #51
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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What this tells me is that there is a much bigger demand for the Antares 44. The waiting line for a new Antares is quite long where a FP is more mass produced.
Not sure that follows. If the FP is mass produced (and, presumably, mass sold) and the Antares reflects lower production/sales, there must almost by definition be more buyer "demand" for the FP.

Demand does not, of course, necessarily reflect quality...and perhaps that's really the direction of your comparison...?
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Old 18-11-2014, 18:17   #52
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
Not sure that follows. If the FP is mass produced (and, presumably, mass sold) and the Antares reflects lower production/sales, there must almost by definition be more buyer "demand" for the FP.

Demand does not, of course, necessarily reflect quality...and perhaps that's really the direction of your comparison...?
From what I've heard there's a two to three year wait if you want to purchase a new Antares, which I'm sure would drive the used prices up. I'm sure as the FP is mass produced the wait for a new boat is much shorter and therefore the used prices may be lower?
Do I think there is a difference in quality? Definitely, but that's not what I'm basing my assumptions on.
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Old 18-11-2014, 19:22   #53
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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From what I've heard there's a two to three year wait if you want to purchase a new Antares, which I'm sure would drive the used prices up. I'm sure as the FP is mass produced the wait for a new boat is much shorter and therefore the used prices may be lower?
Do I think there is a difference in quality? Definitely, but that's not what I'm basing my assumptions on.
Fair enuf.

What about the new prices? Is the price for a new Antares comparable to a new FP of similar length etc?

It would be interesting to see comparisons of price depreciation between various used vessels vis--vis their new prices. Interesting, but almost certainly impossible given (1) the absence of reliable sold vessel information and (2) the large differential that may be attributed to the original owner's care (or lack thereof!) of each vessel. We know Seawind claim (and rightfully so from what little evidence we've seen) they hold their value very well, arguably better than others...and they're another mass-production vessel, of course.

FWIW our experience suggests there are many factors influencing demand...and we agree with impi's remarks about demand for our own vessel design. When we were looking we noticed a clear price premium for never-chartered and owner's/3-cabin vessels (like ours, and impi's) and we too are often now approached about possible sale of ours.

We wish the OP well in their search!
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Old 18-11-2014, 20:06   #54
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

New Antares 44i's are priced at $997,000 for delivery ~3 years out.
Resale pricing is currently strong and time-on-market measured in days.
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Old 18-11-2014, 20:12   #55
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
Fair enuf.

What about the new prices? Is the price for a new Antares comparable to a new FP of similar length etc?

It would be interesting to see comparisons of price depreciation between various used vessels vis--vis their new prices. Interesting, but almost certainly impossible given (1) the absence of reliable sold vessel information and (2) the large differential that may be attributed to the original owner's care (or lack thereof!) of each vessel. We know Seawind claim (and rightfully so from what little evidence we've seen) they hold their value very well, arguably better than others...and they're another mass-production vessel, of course.

FWIW our experience suggests there are many factors influencing demand...and we agree with impi's remarks about demand for our own vessel design. When we were looking we noticed a clear price premium for never-chartered and owner's/3-cabin vessels (like ours, and impi's) and we too are often now approached about possible sale of ours.

We wish the OP well in their search!
Yeah definitely, and just adding to this comment ... my cousin has a fairly well known reputable catamaran sales and refurbishment company called Just Catamarans ... called me some time back to say there is a MASSIVE demand for GOOD, WELL MAINTAINED Lagoon 440's ... says people just can't find them and did I not want to sell. Says he could fetch a terrific price for us ... that says a lot right there !
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Old 18-11-2014, 20:18   #56
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by smj View Post
From what I've heard there's a two to three year wait if you want to purchase a new Antares, which I'm sure would drive the used prices up. I'm sure as the FP is mass produced the wait for a new boat is much shorter and therefore the used prices may be lower?
Do I think there is a difference in quality? Definitely, but that's not what I'm basing my assumptions on.
I guess it really depends on how productive the company is ... perhaps they take a while to produce these which accounts for the long waiting time ??? Just saying as a thought ... I do not have first hand knowledge of Antares boats ... but at that price one would bet there must be a 'hellavalot' of boat in it! Our 440 had an 8 month wait time!
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Old 18-11-2014, 21:15   #57
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by D&D View Post
FWIW...

There is some current and very troubling material about Maverick on another forum.

We too were initially impressed with the Maverick and test-sailed one while in Cape Town. Subsequent events made us very happy we did not proceed there; those same events leave us now inclined to find the current troubling reports to be credible.
Ok Dirk ... pretty interesting stuff ... I just contacted the owner of Maverick as I know him well and know he is a person of integrity and has a good reputation. There are 2 sides to the story ... which story is quite detailed and involved but I can't get onto the forum which is closed down ... and don't want to say too much here ... its not really my business!
In short ... If its a guy with initials PW (don't want to mention his name here) then yeah ... one needs to hear the background to this to fully appreciate why Maverick are under attack.
From what I can gather the owner had asked for no 'paint stipple' which is regular application of the Maverick ... they left it out and unfortunately the paint blistered inside.
Maverick paid Fusion Catamarans in Auckland (R500K +/- $50K subject to exchange rate - not sure recently what it is but going on R10 / $) to strip and re-paint the interior ... the owner intervened wanting a different type spray finish which he paid extra for to Fusion.
Owner was not happy with the spray job and the boat stood on the hard for 10 months as a result.
A court case ensued but the owner did not have the money to pay the bond if I understand this correctly ... Maverick flew a specialist out to to inspect the boat (I have the specialists name but do want to mention it here - he is well known reputable guy) who gave the boat a clean bill of health.
If I read between the lines ... it sounds the owner went through a divorce at the same time and was left with a financial impact and wanted out of the build which Maverick held him to!
I'm going a lot on what is said between the lines, but it pretty much would seem to me that this guy has led a smear campaign against Maverick ever since.
Now, from my own perspective, I have some good mates who are all delivery skippers, one who is delivering a Maverick right now over 6000nm and has delivered many types of boats before. He says he seriously has NO COMPLAINTS about the Maverick ... she is a good solid built boat that is handling some rough seas in an 'impressive manner' ... and Paul is not the kind of guy to b***sh** something like this ... I have always known him to be a straight shooter! So, I would be looking further into this before drawing any conclusive decision on Maverick! We all know how easy it is to bring a make down ... its not always easy to defend it, but I for one, would be quite surprised if Maverick yachts are 'cracking up'.
Remember ... I come in peace here ... I do not own a Maverick, but I know them to be solid cats and I know the people behind Maverick to be 'solid individuals' ... that is why this story surprised me ... I don't know the owner / purchaser ... and I guess I would have to read the comments on the forum to see the colour on the opposite side of the coin
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Old 19-11-2014, 02:50   #58
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

The pictures of the Maverick on the other forum speaks volumes as well as Rudi's comments. Interesting read once the forum gets back up


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Old 19-11-2014, 14:24   #59
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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The pictures of the Maverick on the other forum speaks volumes as well as Rudi's comments. Interesting read once the forum gets back up
Spot on. We are also aware of other reliable sources with first-hand experience supporting those (and other) troubling reports about Maverick...and confirming too that Rudi's version(s) of facts are renown to be self-serving, putting it kindly.

As impi says, there are always two sides to any 'story'. Caveat Emptor!
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Old 19-11-2014, 15:05   #60
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Re: Best cat for extended cruising

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Originally Posted by D&D View Post
Spot on. We are also aware of other reliable sources with first-hand experience supporting those (and other) troubling reports about Maverick...and confirming too that Rudi's version(s) of facts are renown to be self-serving, putting it kindly.

As impi says, there are always two sides to any 'story'. Caveat Emptor!
Ok ... will have to read that ... very sad to hear this ... kinda like someone poked a needle into my 'balloon' ... Rudi has done so much for young people in Cape Town so I find this all rather sad! If this is true, of course it is an even worse situation for the owners, but I definitely would have to see the photos and read the comments to feel the truth in my heart. There could be nothing worse than paying a lot of moola for something that is not right
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