Best 38' Hull Design - Least Pounding?

[mudbug]

Originally Posted by Therapy

There are those that say that having the engines in separate compartments aft make it dangerous if one has to work on them while at sea

Sure they say that! How else are they going to convince you to that it was a bright idea to have you sleep on top of a hot, smelly diesel engine and have to unmake your bunk just to check the damn oil? And don´t forget dragging oil and fuel filters and parts and all that goes with it through the living quarters. Also,the firewalls keep the threat of fire outside the living quarters and there is a hole with removable plug to allow you to empty a fire extinguisher through the firewall and smother the compartment with ease.

No matter, I HAVE NEVER been in seas anywhere near breaking over the high, top step of the 380, and don´t plan to be. The engine hatches are gasketed and can take waves if need be, but they don´t.

IF, and that is a HUGE "if", you ever needed to get into an engine compartment in survival seas, you could point, time it and get in and shut the hatch. But why would that happen? What about all the hype about redundancy in cats and two engines? And I have Yanmars for goodness sake! The better question is why are you in survival seas? NO CATS like that action.

Truthfully, it is a red herring "BS" fear sales pitch of competitors to knock the aft engine compartments on 380´s. 440´s have the same superior design.

In reality, it is a thing of absolute beauty and I consider it one of the ¨home run¨ features of the boat. .. and there are many.

As far as light wind goes, I had a DOYLE spinnaker made and I can do 7 in 12.

So, I don´t see the big deal. If you have to have a GUNBOAT then pony up, spend the dough. . . and race every sail on the horizon.

But, in the world of laid back cruising, the 380 does extremely well and keeps up with 41´s and 42´s and the performance has been more than acceptable for us.

Not to knock the number crunchers and performance junkies, but nobody really cares out here. Comfort on the hook, ease of maintenance, and things like that are the issue, not doing 8 knots when everybody else does 6 or 7 in the same wind.

I just can´t over emphasize our satisfaction out here cruising on a 380 and seeing real performances of all our buddy boats.

There is a lot of marketing BS that gets said over and over by different manufacturers and their "fans" so much that people think its conventional wisdom and fact. My fellow buddy-boaters and I have sure debunked a lot of so-called facts out here.

Again, there are lots of great choices and tradeoffs in all boats, but the list is long and significant as to why the 380 has been perfect for us. It may not be right for you. It´s all about getting what you like and what suits your priorities. So, look at a lot of cats and see what you get for the money.

That´s why I don´t knock any other cats. They all have strong and weak points.

On the loading a 380 issue, next time you see 380 and a 410 look at how much wider the 380 hulls are aft. We simply have not had a problem and we brought it all, if you know what I mean.

All the best,

Buddy

[JusDreaming]

We like the design and sailing ability of our lagoon 37. It is a good livaboard boat and has never scared us to be in 10-15 ft seas. But it is older than you desire.
We bare boated all over the world trying different boats. Then narrowed it down, and kept trying them. We finally decided on our boat. Good lines, strong, and slaps very little, mainly when I screw up!!
On the other hand the Lagoon 380 are good sailig boats. And very nice liv-a-board boats. We sailed one and damn near bought one, they were just a bit more money than we had
Buddy/ MudBug does not bull ****, if he had something he did not like, he WOULD tell you. And he does not baby his boat, he basically sails the hell out of it! But he is correct, you actually realistically spend more time on the hook than crossing oceans. That is if you are cruising and not do deliveries.
I also like the Privledge though, never sailed one but they are a pretty boat.
What no one has mentioned is the personal factor. When you find the right boat, you will know it as soon as you step on board. It will just feel different!!!!!!!

[D&D]

Thanks very much, to both Buddy/mudbug and Alan/Nordic cat.

Both of you strike very familiar themes here. We are definitely cruisers, not racers, BUT we also know that Australian coastal conditions often see relatively (certainly by comparison to those great easterlies I experienced in the Caribbean!) light winds.

So we are not at all interested in top speeds, BUT we are also very determined to avoid spending a lot of loot on a nice sailing cat, only to find ourselves listening to the diesels to keep moving! Light wind performance is our only performance criteria, but it is a major issue for us, hence the focus on weight and sail areas.

Once again, we really appreciate your thoughts.

Cheers
Don & Di

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by mudbug

Truthfully, it is a red herring "BS" fear sales pitch of competitors to knock the aft engine compartments on 380´s. 440´s have the same superior design.

In reality, it is a thing of absolute beauty and I consider it one of the ¨home run¨ features of the boat. .. and there are many.


Buddy

Thanks for that.
It really is hard to filter it all when so few actually use what they are talking about.
They must be busy cruising.......

[Nordic cat]

I think the seperated engine rooms are a great idea. With the very wide transoms on these new style cats, weight placement and hobby horsing are not big issues, as they would be on a more traditional and slimmer hull design.

That is also the reason why they perform OK up to around "hull speed", but will be more "sticky" in light winds given the larger wetted surface areas of these designs.


I have been on a couple of FP's with the engines aft of the rudder, and close quarters work didn't seem to suffer.

If you are getting waves onto your aft deck on a cat, then you will be in serious trouble, splash and spray is a different story... So well sealed hatches will work fine IMO.

It's all "horses for courses".

Personally, light wind performance is important when sailing up here in the Baltic.

Alan

[imagine2frolic]

The good thing about being in an engine compartment that is aft. When the deisel smell starts getting to your stomache. You can poke your head up for some fresh air. MUDBUG is absolutely right. I wouldn't want the smell inisde the boat, and dragging fuel, and old filter through the living quarters.......i2f

[D&D]

Alan/Nordic cat,

I noticed your comment that light wind performance is important to you, as it is to us.

I'm not at all familiar with your boat type, but I gather it's a Fountaine Pajot 35? Do you experience the 50-60% of TWS (typical of French cats) that you mentioned earlier in your own sailing...and thus end up using your engine(s) a lot in the lighter airs? Or is your vessel not one of the current style 'fat' hulls (with more wetted surface) made by FP?

Don

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by imagine2frolic

The good thing about being in an engine compartment that is aft. When the deisel smell starts getting to your stomache. You can poke your head up for some fresh air. MUDBUG is absolutely right. I wouldn't want the smell inisde the boat, and dragging fuel, and old filter through the living quarters.......i2f

Yep, I've decided to change the boat from 4 cabin to 2 cabin and cut out (circular saws and sledgehammers at the ready)the back cabins with engines under the bed and seal doorway cutouts and make the cockpit/back patio much larger and put engine sized hatches in the cockpit floor so as to keep smell, noise etc etc TOTALLY seperate from living area.

This'll make the engine room 3 metres long with a 800mm long motor in it, leaving plenty of space for tools, filters, oil etc

My engines are positioned 5 metres in from the transom

Dave

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by D&D

Alan/Nordic cat,

I noticed your comment that light wind performance is important to you, as it is to us.

I'm not at all familiar with your boat type, but I gather it's a Fountaine Pajot 35? Do you experience the 50-60% of TWS (typical of French cats) that you mentioned earlier in your own sailing...and thus end up using your engine(s) a lot in the lighter airs? Or is your vessel not one of the current style 'fat' hulls (with more wetted surface) made by FP?

Don

Hi Don,

Yes it is a 35 ft FP, and my comments are based primarily with my experience with this boat, but also the Belize.

I took the consequence of this poor light wind performance and re-rigged her this year with a 1.5 m taller rotating wingmast, and a flat top fully battened main.

This increased my mainsail from 34 to around 45 m2 plus around 5 m2 in the mast.

I have had a bowsprit for a Code 0 and gennaker for a number of years.

It is now a totally different boat to sail, it can actually sail in 3 knots of wind. Now it will do around 70-80% TWS, points higher etc.

We get up to around "hull speed" of around 8 knots pretty fast but then the curve flattens. At 20 knots TWS it will do around 9.5 knots on a reach, unless I use one of the big foresails.

Adding ½ a ton load cost between 0,3 and 0,5 knots boatspeed at 6 knots.

I sailed an empty Belize in 22-24 knots, flat water, 1 reef, 6 people on board. Couldn't get it over around 9 knots.

An aquaintance has a Lagoon 380, he is a boat designer (cats) but the wife went for the L380. He has similar experiences.

Best thing to do is actually try these boats in light winds, take your own GPS with you for verification.

Good Luck

Alan

[mudbug]

What a cool thread, because it illuminates how different people are interested in different things.

While I truly appreciate the tradeoffs for performance, it can get a little wild.

The Gunboat we looked at in the 2005 Annapolis show did not have a deck fill fitting nor hosw to the fuel tank. . . that would weigh too much!

So, you drag the fuel hose inside the boat and directly to the tank.

Also, there was ONE door to close either the head or the shower . . . can´t close both at the same time. That would require two doors and it would, you guessed it. .. . weigh too much.

It´s like European sports cars with no cup holder.

Is the Gunboat the sexiest fastest wildest "gotta have one" cat around. Damn right! Is it a practical liveaboard cruiser. . . gee for over a million and spartan accomodations? You tell me. BUT, they DID actually fly a hull with the 48 footer in a gale on the Chesapeake that year.... and broke a rudder!

I have a "six knot rule" on passages and if the sailing is too slow we motorsail or motor of flat calm. I´ll take a pleasure cruise with those dandy little yanmars singing a fine little song over double-reefed nine to ten knot sailing everytime. I paid a LOT for those damn engines and I´ll run them! They are not museum pieces. And they run great and use little fuel.

Besides, after four years of on the move cruising, most all my friends agree that we don´t go "pleasure sailing" much anymore. Now it is more boat delivery than anything else. Sure we still all love sailing per se, but it is about getting to the next great destination in comfortable seas and without beating ourselves up. The boat can take WAY more than we can.

So, sometimes we are in light and variable winds and will not screw around trying to sail at three knots when the weather window will only last so long. On those passages, ALL the cats are motoring or motorsailing.

I have had the utter luxury of sailing in a fleet of cats "out here" for four years now and have spent countless hours gazing at, aboard, and helping fellow boaters repair and maintain just about every major brand of cat.

I know where all the weak points are, and where all the strengths are. I can rip any cat apart, or praise it because it. It is odd that no cat has ALL the best, smart features I have seen on various cats. . . those features are sprinkled amongst the entire fleet.

I thought I knew a lot about cats before I went cruising, because I reada lot. I knew a good bit, but it took a while to really separate the marketing hype and manufacturer hype and just plain horseshit hype that gets batted around.

The good news is that as my understanding and knowledge grew, so did my appreciation for the designers of the L380. There is a reason it became the most successful production run in offshore cruising cats to date. Only the light coastal cruiser gemini 105 has a longer run.

Anyway, there are some things I would change on the 380. The bimini top is too low for tall people like us. So, it was spend 10K on a custom one or learn to duck. We learned to duck and bought ten bucks worth of Advil for the headaches we got now and then while learning to duck. We always duck now.

Also, the fuel tanks are smallish for cruising at only 100 liters X 2.

Those are both relatively easy fixes, but I have not seen the need to take the time nor trouble to even do so.

Everything else, important stuff like handling in wicked squalls offshore and tremendous liveaboard comfort and being able to see all four corners of the boat from the helm and ALL running rigging led into the cockpit and fitting in a 70 ton lift and fitting under all ICW bridges and no engines under the bunks has been FABULOUS, and in terms of speed and load carrying capacity and fuel consumption, it is great.

ALL of us in the fleet do significant amounts of motorsailing to catch CALM weather windows.

Most of all, there is no 38 footer I know of that comes close to the space and storage and sheer comfort and overall value for the money that a 380 represents.

Let´s put it this way. There are a lot of 41 and 42 cat owners who come aboard (after I either kept up with them or passed them on a passage) and immediately see the tremendous space and large comfy cabins with fore and aft bunks and think of all the money they could have saved by going with a 380. Many of them never looked at 380´s (and are sorry) thinking that they had to have a forty foot boat to go offshore which is yet another piece of BS that brokers have loved to spew out and sell bigger boats.

The 380´s beam to length stability rating often beats those other 41 and 42 foot cats´ratios.

Of course, the 380 is not all things to all people. Luckily, it is the perfect boat for us.

I am compiling a list of home run design features on various cats of all the different brands and will one day try and convince a manufacturer that they can make an unbeatable cat by simply making sure that about twenty parameters/features are met.

Anyway, have fun and get a boatyou LOVE, because they don´t always love you back!

All the best,

Buddy

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by mudbug

ALL of us in the fleet do significant amounts of motorsailing to catch CALM weather windows.

Gee I know someone who noticed people doing same so figured he'd save the $60k on rig sails and hardware for a 50 footer and put diesel in the motors the boat would need anyway.

Dave

[Nordic cat]

Originally Posted by mudbug

.
I am compiling a list of home run design features on various cats of all the different brands and will one day try and convince a manufacturer that they can make an unbeatable cat by simply making sure that about twenty parameters/features are met.

Buddy

Please share your preliminary list with us

Alan

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by mudbug

BS that brokers have loved to spew out

I am compiling a list of home run design features on various cats of all the different brands and will one day try and convince a manufacturer that they can make an unbeatable cat by simply making sure that about twenty parameters/features are met.



Buddy

It is nice to hear what you say.

Thanks.

On the list, like you mentioned before, I bet the Manta cockpit is on it......Unbelievable!!!! Storage, grill, flat deck, sides, top, solid, solar......OOOHHHHH!!

[D&D]

Thanks again to both Buddy/mudbug and Alan/Nordic cat!

Alan, your efforts to improve light weather performance sounded SOOO much like my own thinking...and then I read Buddy's...

"Besides, after four years of on the move cruising, most all my friends agree that we don´t go "pleasure sailing" much anymore. Now it is more boat delivery than anything else. Sure we still all love sailing per se, but it is about getting to the next great destination in comfortable seas and without beating ourselves up. The boat can take WAY more than we can.

So, sometimes we are in light and variable winds and will not screw around trying to sail at three knots when the weather window will only last so long. On those passages, ALL the cats are motoring or motorsailing."

Ah Buddy, you are a smooth-talking devil...and I mean that in the nicest way! Much as I love the sailing sensations, I know you're right when you talk about life 'on the hook' as what it's really all about for extended cruising. We will most definitely be picking our weather windows as we cruise the Australian coastline.

Still, we want to sail, not motor, and not because we're trying to save the diesels! Perhaps we haven't quite reached Buddy's view of pleasure sailing vis-a-vis boat delivery.

In any event, we wander on in our pursuit of our boat...and we embrace both of you for your generous efforts in sharing your experiences.

Cheers from Down Under!
Don & Di

[mudbug]

D&D

Hey, Good on ya, mate! And yes, I can understand wanting to sail.

It all comes down to regional conditions. If you get weeks of tranquil weather that will not throw any "curve balls" at you and you can poke along at slow speeds and be safe and comfy, then I am all for it!

Then again, in areas like the Caribbean, it's easy to be caught in very rough seas. For example, the seas off the northernmost tip of Venezuela are ranked the fifth roughest in the world and winds howl and seas and currents stack up in "normal" everyday trade wind conditions.

So, the method is to wait for a weather feature that interrupts the trades and then RUN FOR IT!

And even though you HOPE for very light winds that will last 24 hours, it still gets wild. We departed Aruba (off the north coast of Venezuela) headed for Colombia and thus through those notorious seas. We had everything from flat calm motoring to 25 to 30 knots and b/w 15 and 20 foot following seas at one point. And the forecast was 10 knot winds and three foot seas.

Weather is very dynamic in the SW and NW Caribbean and thus the development of the "boat delivery" mind set amongst the fleet.

I dream of a sea where the wind blows anywhere from 10 to 15 off the port aft quarter and the following seas are two feet. . . . forever! I'd be a die hard purist again like I was in my old Hobie 16 days! I'd sell the Yanmars on E-Bay.

But then again, as for the power cat. . . . I'll admit it! There have been quite a few times that I thought it would be a GREAT idea. One that comes to mind was reefing at 02:00 in the blackness of a new moon in a very bad squall alone on watch and tired somewhere along the seven-day "I 65" 1150 mile offshore route between Ft. Lauderdale and the Virgin Islands.

I got ready for the oncoming weather I spotted on radar and got the jib furled, the main double reefed and winched down tight amidships for gybe protection, and then headed into it, motoring moderately with the autopilot (sitting inside at the nav station and using the autopilot remote and monitoring the radar/GPS and all the repeater B&G displays to check wind direction and speed).

Hmmmm. . . in a power cat I never would have had to go outside!

Truth be told, I would like a "transformer" that would become a fast trimaran and then, at the push of a button, fold up and become a 25 knot Bertram sportfish!!! YEAH BABY!

Now, on that list of twenty things that a cat should have. . . well, I can't just give all that research away, can I?

Maybe it'll be in "The Book" one day.

Anyway, all the best and D&D I wish you great success in finding the perfect boat for your tastes and needs.

Buddy