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Old 19-08-2010, 18:09   #121
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beau's boat

An update on progress.
on Beau's aluminium trimaran motor sailer

Just had the boat out of the water for some modifications and antifouling.
I sold the 2 X30 honda's on Ebay and bought 2 X 90hp Tohatsu two stokes with oil injection.
I found after much research the two stokes, if run at the 3500-4500rpm range use only 10% more fuel than a four stroke, plus they are lighter and I saved $7,000 per motor. The other reason i bought basic two strokes is that they are much easier to repair.

Under the 2 x 30hp Hondas cruising speed was 6.5 knots at 4,000 rpm.
With the new 2 X 90hp I get 11 knots at 3,000rpm. The new motors are still being run in, so I can't push the rev's beyond 3,000 uo to a maximum of 5,500 for full throttle, yet.

I also have the oceanic lateen sail fully rigged and ready to sail.

I hope to have pictures and more details soon.

The overall cruising plan is to wait for the right weather conditions and sail down wind, (The sail rig won't be able to tack)

When the winds drop, I can motor on ONE outboard at 4,000rpm for a cruising economical speed of 9 knots. I have 1000litres of fuel )
Over 25 knots of wind I drop the sail and motor

If because of weather or get there before dark etc I will use both motors for an estimated 18 knots?
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Old 19-08-2010, 18:27   #122
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Originally Posted by beau View Post
An update on progress.
on Beau's aluminium trimaran motor sailer
Nice to see your still around are you still in Brissy or have you started you adventure up the coast?
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Old 19-08-2010, 18:35   #123
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We are still in Brisbane with the boat just back in the water. Christine fell off the scaffolding while doing the anti fouling and broke a bone in both ankles. She will be in hospital for 6 weeks.

I have to run in the new motors and we hope to head North in October, leaving Cairns in April next year bound for Indonesia etc
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Old 19-08-2010, 19:32   #124
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This is a great project but can I ask one question.

Do you really get 2 x 9 Knots = 18 knots using both motors or is it just some (significant) increase on your 9 knots?

I was wondering because the answer will help with an issue that I am presently pondering !!!
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Old 19-08-2010, 19:56   #125
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At this stage I have to run in the new motors at no more than 3,000rpm so I don't really know yet what speed I will get at higher rev's
I did get 11 knots with both motors running at 3,000rpm.

I am hoping for 9 knots with one motor running at a very econimical
3,500 - 4,000rpm.
The "18 knots" is both motors running at 5,000rpm ???

I tested the concept by building a 15 ft plywood prototype and fitted a 8hp motor. At before 10 knots I got no bow wave but a significant stern wave.
However with more speed the hull lifted up and took off with a flat stern wave. (somone on this forum suggested that the "bow wave" was being formed further to the rear (because of the very fine bow entry design) and that was what was causing the hull to lift. ?
It is definitely not the normal planeing or hydrodynamic lift, because the hull bottom is angled deeper at the bow. (the opposite to a planeing hull.

As a general rule, to double the speed you need four times the hp.

Also with this type of hull design we only need 25hp/ton (to get 15-20 knots, whereas with a planeing hull you need 60 hp/ton
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Old 16-09-2010, 08:07   #126
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Thumbs up Advantages of design?

Beau,
I like the aluminum construction of your boat (I'm a former nuclear welder so I really appreciate metalwork, especially when well done) as well as the extensive testing you have done to prove/maximize the performance of your design. I have recently become interested in sailing and multi-hulls in particular due to their stability and performance. Several questions regarding your boat:

- From the info you have provided it seems most of your time will be spent docked in your floating home or on relatively short transits to shipping points where the boat can be shipped via container to the next calm destination you want to reside. Why go to all the trouble and extra expense of adding the sail and outriggers?

- The boat is basically a motorsailer, with very limited performance while under sail and limited times you can actually use the sail. Why did you not eliminate the sail design and just do with straight motor propulsion. If you wanted to get efficient you could look into electric motor propulsion units and determine of these would be more efficient than the outboards or inboards. I like the electric propulsion idea because the battery banks could be charged by both solar panels as well as the generator(s) used to power the motors. The generator(s) could be a portable, off-the-shelf type unit for ease of availability in parts and replacemeent if needed. You can also rotate the motors/prop for great maneuverability. What are your thoughts on an electric propulsion setup like this?

- Since you plan on only smooth water transits, why did you add the outriggers? They don't enhance the performance of the boat or add any significant stability since you plan to avoid any rough weather. You could have also made the boat wider if you didn't have them to give you more living space.

- I'm real curious how you plan to get this loaded into a shipping container. Would you use an open top container and crane it in? How is it going to be secured from moving around inside the container and getting damaged? Will you have to drain all the fuel tanks before shipping since it would probably constitute flammable/hazardous cargo and require special documentation and handling? How will you drain the tanks, and into what container, and what will you do to ensure they are fume free for shippment (purging with an inert gas such as nitrogen or argon)? Will there be any issues at the offload destination getting refueled so you can continue the journey?

Sorry about all the questions but I really want to find out more about your overall design and long term planning like this since I would love to design and build my own live aboard in the future. Awesome work on the boat!
John
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Old 16-09-2010, 13:01   #127
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Beau,
I like the aluminum construction of your boat (I'm a former nuclear welder so I really appreciate metalwork, especially when well done) as well as the extensive testing you have done to prove/maximize the performance of your design. I have recently become interested in sailing and multi-hulls in particular due to their stability and performance. Several questions regarding your boat:

- From the info you have provided it seems most of your time will be spent docked in your floating home or on relatively short transits to shipping points where the boat can be shipped via container to the next calm destination you want to reside. Why go to all the trouble and extra expense of adding the sail and outriggers?

- The boat is basically a motorsailer, with very limited performance while under sail and limited times you can actually use the sail. Why did you not eliminate the sail design and just do with straight motor propulsion. If you wanted to get efficient you could look into electric motor propulsion units and determine of these would be more efficient than the outboards or inboards. I like the electric propulsion idea because the battery banks could be charged by both solar panels as well as the generator(s) used to power the motors. The generator(s) could be a portable, off-the-shelf type unit for ease of availability in parts and replacemeent if needed. You can also rotate the motors/prop for great maneuverability. What are your thoughts on an electric propulsion setup like this?

- Since you plan on only smooth water transits, why did you add the outriggers? They don't enhance the performance of the boat or add any significant stability since you plan to avoid any rough weather. You could have also made the boat wider if you didn't have them to give you more living space.

- I'm real curious how you plan to get this loaded into a shipping container. Would you use an open top container and crane it in? How is it going to be secured from moving around inside the container and getting damaged? Will you have to drain all the fuel tanks before shipping since it would probably constitute flammable/hazardous cargo and require special documentation and handling? How will you drain the tanks, and into what container, and what will you do to ensure they are fume free for shippment (purging with an inert gas such as nitrogen or argon)? Will there be any issues at the offload destination getting refueled so you can continue the journey?

Sorry about all the questions but I really want to find out more about your overall design and long term planning like this since I would love to design and build my own live aboard in the future. Awesome work on the boat!
John
I'm interested to know what sort of boat you are thinking about building yourself. Just from your description I see you have a tri-hull in mind. What sort of boat are you envisioning? (size, propulsion, notable qualities)
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Old 16-09-2010, 14:29   #128
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Re: Boat build

Event,
I'm not really sure yet. I've just recently become more interested in a multi-hull (I used to think monohull was the only way to go) so I am starting to look at info from all over to get ideas and learn from those that already live or have lived the life. I also used to think that turning the key and hitting the throttle was the only way to go, but as I've gotten older (and hopefully wiser) sailing has become more interesting to me as the main form of propulsion. I have always been interested in building or overseeing the build of a boat custom built to my specs, expecially if it's something I will be living on full time. That and I just like to create and build new and different things. Electric propulsion is an example of a technology that has caught my interest to see how feasible it would be for a small boat (they use it on ships and subs). I like the lighweight composite materials used to build cats and trimarans, but I also love the solidness, strength and beauty of aluminum. So much to learn and so little time (and so little money). Peace.
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Old 16-09-2010, 15:28   #129
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I will try an answer your questions.
Yes, the concept is to stay, in port etc and wait for a weather window, for motoring or sailing downwind.
I now have 2X 90 hp outboards, I can motor on one outboard at 9 knots. With two motors I have seen 12 knots but I am still running in the motors and I need to change the props for a finer pitch (to increase the rev's)

To get this speed with low power (fast displacement/non planeing) It is necessary to have a very fine angle of entry at the bow which continues back to the stern, the hull shape is triangular which is not stable as a monohull and outriggers must be added, even for motoring.

A typical bermudian sailing rig with sails would have cost a minimum of $25,000 my Oceanic lateen rig cost $3,000. It handles like a controllable spinnaker downwind and is very efficient because the majority of the sail area is high up where the stronger wind is.

The use of the sail is to reduce fuel costs wherever possible in suitable weather conditions.
I chose outboards instead of diesels because of the reduced weight and significant reduction in purchase cost.
Yes I will use more fuel (I have 1,000litres of fuel storage and a motoring range of 500 miles)

Also the outboards leave no fuel smell in the cabin area and the props can be lifted clear of the water. I have a draft of 30 cm or 1 ft and can be safely beached.

I have only just fitted the sail and the new motors and I am still running in the motors and playing with the sail I will give more details and photo's before long.

We plan to cruise from Brisbane to Cairns leaving Cairns afer the cyclone season en route to Darwin/Indonesia/Malaysia/Phillipines and Thailand sailing and motoring all the way.

I plan to slide it into a 40ft container in Singapore to ship to the Mediternean. It will take about a day to dismantle and two days to put it back together. The outriggers unbolt and go underneath the main hull.
Another alternative that I have just heard about is to use the RORO ships, they are more expensive than a container but less dismantling is necessary.

Let me add one more thing.
I love cruising but to cruise with a women as company you have to make it comfortable.
I do not particularly wish to sail around the world (a minimum of 3 years) I want to pick certain areas that I like and stay as long as possible. Our first choice is S/E asia. Then we want to cruise the Mediterean and then the East coast of the USA.
I have designed this boat specifically with that in mind.
Weather forecasting is better (buoy weather)
Don't have a schedule, and be able to do 200- 300 miles a day if necessary.

By the way, electric propulsion with solar panels just doesn't work. Do the figures. The number of panels needed and the battery storage required just don't work.
Maybe a designated diesel running a generator/electric motor will, but why bother with all the extra cost.
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Old 16-09-2010, 15:50   #130
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By the way, electric propulsion with solar panels just doesn't work. Do the figures. The number of panels needed and the battery storage required just don't work.
Maybe a designated diesel running a generator/electric motor will, but why bother with all the extra cost.
I have to agree with beau. Solar panels + Wind-gen just doesn't get you enough power. The ships and subs I know that really make excellent use of electric engines draw power from an inboard thermonuclear reactor...which does generate enough power, or like beau said, have dedicated diesel generators. There is also the complication of weight, large battery banks are very very heavy which makes them hard to fit on small boats.

This is all of course, negotiable for the most part. If you REALLY want to make it work and have the money to do so, it is conceivable that with a little cleverness you can work something out.
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Old 16-09-2010, 18:16   #131
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Great info!

Thanks for the great info Beau and Event. I can't wait to see more pics of your boat. Do you have them posted somewhere? I'm of the same mindset as you when it comes to traveling. There are certain areas I want to see and stay at as long as desired, but I want to minimize the travel time and hassle getting between the areas, especially in certain dangerous parts of the world. I know my better half (nor I) could stand to spend several weeks crossing long distances of open water to get to other areas of the world, so the shipping idea makes very good sense. Once you get to the area you desire you have your floating home to travel around as you please. As you said before you could even ship it by truck (or train), so you could go to inland waterways too (the Great Lakes).
I would love to see more details of your boat design. The shallow draft and efficiency of build (straight cuts and panels vs. curved) are great, as is using an experienced shipbuilder to assemble it all instead of a general weld/metal shop.
How do you plan to slide it into the container (i.e rollers, casters, etc)? Will it be secured from moving inside the container? Movement during the shipping portion could cause damage to the boat and/or cause the container to shift and fall. How tall is the boat (i.e. will it fit in a closed container or just an open top)? Thanks.
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Old 16-09-2010, 20:24   #132
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If you go back to the beginning of "beau's boat" there are lots of construction photo's etc and drawings of the sail concept.

I designed the boat but had a marine structural engineer draw it up. It was then emailed to the Aluminium company who had it all cut out on a cnc router. It arrived at the aluminium boat builder on the back of a truck all cut out and all numbered. It was just a matter of tacking it all together. In five weeks the structural shell bulkheads etc were finished.

It has a central "keel" which is 4" wide which runs the full length of the boat. I would envisage using some greased timber lengths as a guide and use a forklift to push it into the container. The boat is only just wide enough to fit through the doors of the container and a small amount of packing will secure it.
The container would be a high cube which is taller than the standard height, the top panels on the top deck are bolted so they will come off and the mast is easily dropped.

Recently a friend of mine brought is a power boat from the USA on a Roll on Roll off (RORO) boat. This may be more suitable with fewer height and width restrictions, however it will cost more, but not that much more.

Again the central idea is to have a comfortable liveaboard (we have been aboard for 2 years now) Large shower and toilet. A fridge and a freezer.
A large aft deck where we spend all our time which has insect screens and covers. A full kitcken including oven and microwave. A large double bed plus an occasional bunk. Air conditioning. Gas stove and hot water shower.
Power supply is 400 watts of solar panels plus a 2kva petrol generator.

This is not a boat to take all your friends out for the day cruise etc it is specifically built for the purpose in mind. And it is not that expensive.
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Old 17-09-2010, 11:10   #133
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Great info!

Beau,
Great info on the project. Your concept is pretty much what I am envisioning....a comfortable live aboard for the family with all the amenities but no unneeded excess to waste money or space. No need for a "party" boat to hold lots of people, which results in excess wasted space. I'll search the forum and see what other pics I can find of the project to get a better idea of the layout and design. Thanks for all the info.
I'm starting a journal to write down what I do and don't want in a design, plus any special design features that catch my eye. Once I get closer to go time I can review all the notes and convert the ideas into a workable final design, working with a marine professional, much like you did.
We have quite a few shipyards in this area and the largest, Newport News Shipbuilding, has a great apprenticeship school for various jobs, one of which is marine drafting and design. I have been very interested in getting in the program for several years but the major thing that keeps me from pursuing it is the horrible commute from where we live, along with our daughters school schedule. Hopefully I can iron out these hurdles and move forward with getting into this field, which really interests me. Until then I'm considering taking classes in AutoCAD at the local community college to get some experience using the programs. We use an upscale version of CAD at work (SolidWorks) which I am trying to get them to send me to school to learn. It is an amazing program and we do all of our design and development work using it. This is a skill I could potentially use for income from anywhere in the world once we make the leap to live aboard. Peace.
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Old 19-09-2010, 21:10   #134
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Thumbs up boat design training

Beau,
I found out that in addition to the regular AutoCad courses the local Community College offers, they have a "Ship Design Drafting" course as well. I'm planning on starting some classes to focus on AutoCad next semester and can't wait until I get to the point where I can start playing around with different boat designs and configurations.
As I have surfed for more info on the net and read sites such as:Cruising Under Power Southeast Asia in a Converted Fishing Boat
I have begun to understand the philosophy of planning trips around the weather and building a strong "slow but steady" boat is sometimes much better than a lightweight speed machine. So much to learn about this new lifestyle! Peace.
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Old 20-09-2010, 21:32   #135
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motor-gearbox combo?

Beau,
Did you research any inboard diesel engine/gearbox combos? What I'm wondering is if you had a gearbox with different ratios to select, you could select a low rpm ration for slow speed/low fuel consumption but switch to a higher rpm ratio for faster speed when needed. What are your thoughts on a configuration like this? Thanks.
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