Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-08-2012, 08:40   #1
POH
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Caribbean --> Australia
Boat: Lagoon 420, Duncanson 29, Laser
Posts: 102
Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I'm looking at a Lagoon 420 and have been reading all the threads bashing its performance.

So ... the racer in me is getting scarred!

What are the actual cruising averages for those of you who have cruised extensively on a ~40ft production cat?

Hoping that actual cruisers with boats contribute and this isn't a speculative "I've heard that ..." thread. Please indicate if you're boat is loaded with gear.

Thanks in advance.
__________________

POH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 09:01   #2
Senior Cruiser
 
colemj's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Presently on US East Coast
Boat: Manta 40 "Reach"
Posts: 10,049
Images: 12
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

The 420 was originally designed for electric propulsion. When the first one was built, the weight of the batteries in the stern caused the stern to be underwater so Lagoon modified the mold to put more buoyancy there.

Attached is a picture of this modification. You can decide whether this is a performance detriment or not.

Mark
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Lagoon 420 stern 2.jpg
Views:	363
Size:	42.9 KB
ID:	45395  
__________________

__________________
www.svreach.com

You do not need a parachute to skydive. You only need a parachute to skydive twice.
colemj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 10:23   #3
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 260
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I believe the whacky stern change was not the primary reason people said the 420 was slow. I just grilled my Lagoon dealer on this exact topic as I am considering the 420. I was just touring the 421 and a 420 the other day and should sea trial the 421 in the next few months. He said he could not tell any difference in speed in the 421 vs. the 420.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	lagoon 421 stern.jpg
Views:	380
Size:	36.4 KB
ID:	45397  
__________________
jostalli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 10:37   #4
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,964
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Yuk, what a nasty looking mod. Obviously would create turbulence/drag and slow her down. Yet another example of why almost all cruising cats have the engines in the wrong place!

Fortunately I've not run a 42 with that particular mod, but I have run a lot of mid-sized (40-50 ft) cats in charter (FP, Lagoon, Manta, Privilege, ...). The racer in you should keep in mind that you are considering purchasing a "cruising" boat. Most mid sized product cats I would not even classify as "performance cruisers". In moderate conditions, for a boat in this LOA range, you can reasonably expect to make 8 knots +/-. In ideal conditions, for example 20 knots just aft of beam, maybe a bit more. Cats are more weight sensitive than monos, so a lot depends upon loading -- a typical heavily loaded cruising cat is not going to perform as well as the same boat loaded for a day sail.

If you want a "peformance cruiser" then you should be looking at boats like Chris Whites, Catanas, etc... Of course, most of these come with considerably steeper price tags.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 13:31   #5
POH
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Caribbean --> Australia
Boat: Lagoon 420, Duncanson 29, Laser
Posts: 102
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Thanks guys. The cat will be an upgrade from my 4KSB, so anything faster than a 3.5knt average will be nice!

Seriously though - I get that I'm trading off speed for comfort - my question is more a "what do you realistically average on a production cat, loaded for a circumnavigation with some amenities such as water maker, genset, etc.".
POH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 14:12   #6
Registered User

Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: W Carib
Boat: Wildcat 35, Hobie 33
Posts: 7,964
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Quote:
Originally Posted by POH View Post
Thanks guys. The cat will be an upgrade from my 4KSB, so anything faster than a 3.5knt average will be nice!

Seriously though - I get that I'm trading off speed for comfort - my question is more a "what do you realistically average on a production cat, loaded for a circumnavigation with some amenities such as water maker, genset, etc.".
The numbers I gave above were for boats loaded for full service week long charters which should be reasonably comparable. Were talking many cases of drinks, water toys, multiple guests and their junk, a week's worth of food for the whole crew, captain & crew, fishing/snorkel/scuba gear, 10Ft RIB and OB, some of these boats have gensets & watermakers.

For cruising use you would of course have more weight in tools & spares, but a few cases of drinks should cover that.
__________________
belizesailor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 15:28   #7
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,172
Images: 15
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I think 8kt averages are reasonable if you know how to sail the boat and you don't overload it.
__________________
tamicatana is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 15:34   #8
Registered User
 
speciald@ocens.'s Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: On the boat - Carib, Chesapeake
Boat: 58 Taswell AS
Posts: 1,139
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Agree with the previous statement. Catamarans will not be as fast when they are loaded with cruising stuff. Weight is slow.
__________________
speciald@ocens. is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 15:46   #9
Senior Cruiser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Chesapeake Region and Maine
Boat: 42' Bob Perry sloop
Posts: 4,038
Images: 4
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I would suggest that there are at least two datasets which can provide you with "objective" data to estimate the speed of multihulls:

1. race results for, e.g., the Caribbean 1500 and other ocean races; and

2. PHRF ratings.

The first is more likely to be useful in estimating the kinds of speeds you might expect from a loaded cruising boat.

The PHRF ratings are more likely to estimate maximum speed for a lightly loaded racing cat.

Anecdotal stuff is maybe useful, too. I can tell you that my 42' monohull, with a PHRF of 92 and fully loaded for cruising, regularly walked away from the rental cruising cats in the British Virgin Islands for some years. This was especially true to windward, where those heavily loaded and short-rigged cats can't get out of their own way, even with both engines running. They get stopped by the seas in the Drake Channel, making for slow and uncomfortable passages to windward.

Off the wind, they're not much better. I once outpaced a cat with a crack racing crew in an impromptu race from Anegada to Beef Island, with a breeze of wind on the quarter. An hour after we started they were hull down behind us. Later, they challenged us in a race from Trellis Bay to Cooper Island in a strong beam wind. Same result, though not so much difference in speed.

Over many thousands of ocean miles, I've averaged 160 nautical miles per day. My guess is that a cruising catamaran, heavily loaded, is unlikely to make better than that, and except for the most optimum conditions is highly likely to make less.

FWIW,

Bill
__________________
btrayfors is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 16:39   #10
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2009
Boat: Lagoon 450, Jeanneau 479, & Jeanneau 409
Posts: 174
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I've always heard that the 420 was the slowest of the Lagoons and Lagoons are cruisers, not racers. We had a 400 for a couple of years before getting a new 450 that is loaded with almost every option. Both of them did/do about 2/3 the wind speed on a reach. The 400 had a good genaker for downwind so it did even better then 2/3. We haven't purchased a downwind sail for the 450 yet. I think that the 400 was faster than the 450 is but the ride is much nicer on the 450 and it is vastly more comfortable when you get to where you're going.

We looked at every catamaran at the Annapolis and Miami shows last year and there was not a single boat that we'd rather have even at double the price.
__________________
Lucky Larry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 17:05   #11
Senior Cruiser
 
Jim Cate's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2008
Location: cruising SW Pacific
Boat: Jon Sayer 1-off 46 ft fract rig sloop strip plank in W Red Cedar
Posts: 11,471
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Quote:
Originally Posted by tamif27 View Post
I think 8kt averages are reasonable if you know how to sail the boat and you don't overload it.
Frankly, I think that this is unlikely, IF you really mean average speeds for a whole passage. My observation is that most of us tend to say "average" speed when we mean "average of the best speeds obtained on a trip".

We often sail in the company of cruising cats here on teh East coast of Oz. A few of them have been pretty fast, and have waxed our butts. But the majority are pretty ordinary, even off the wind, and are certainly NOT averaging anywhere near 8 knots, and the vast majority just turn on the engines if windward work is required. I don't object to this practice, but feel that it should be included in the statements about "average speeds".

Cruising cats have many attributes, and are deservedly popular, especially on the Queensland coast where conditions favor them. But their claims of great sailing speeds are all too often not demonstrable in the real world.

Cheers,

Jim
__________________
Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II , lying Port Cygnet, Tasmania once again
Jim Cate is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 19:39   #12
Marine Service Provider
 
Factor's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Brisbane Australia
Boat: Corsair Dash MKII
Posts: 4,087
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

It all depends doesn't it. SAying cruising cats are fast or slow is the same as saying cars are fast or slow. Fat hulls heavy boat equals slower, slimmer hulls lighter boat equals faster. Waterline length helps on cats as well just like monos, just not to the same extent as it does on monos. I can sail past Lagoons, but plenty of good multis can sail past me.
__________________
Factor is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 21:08   #13
Registered User
 
muskoka's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sai Kung, Hong Kong
Boat: FP Lavezzi 40 / Hatteras 48
Posts: 775
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Cruiser can mean anything from motor sailor to cruiser / racer. But cats are the same as any boat: Power to displacement ratio & beam to length ratio give you an idea of what to expect.
__________________
muskoka is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 22:41   #14
POH
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Caribbean --> Australia
Boat: Lagoon 420, Duncanson 29, Laser
Posts: 102
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

When I was looking for "average cruising speed" I was definitely looking for the total average - i.e. we tend to make 160nm days as above.

The decision to go with a cat was based on comfort at anchor not speed, so if I can make about the same speed I would in a loaded mono, I'm happy.

I'm still hoping some of you actual cruisers of FP/Leopard/Lagoon production cats can provide that kind of data. The L420 looks great to live on, but it sounds like many people think it's the dog of all the production cats?
POH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-08-2012, 23:41   #15
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Fethiye Turkey
Boat: Lagoon 440
Posts: 3,164
Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

The only way to get averages would be to consider long sails where you can rate the daily mileage to the conditions thrown at you, the ARC races give great and very real data, 160 mile days for our boat on a crossing would be a realistic goal for sure....

When sailing we trim fairly constantly and usually achieve half windspeed + 15 to 20%.
Average speed? I would think around 4 to 5 knots because on the average the wind is usually on the nose or non-existant.....

Charter boats are usually in lightship trim because they don't carry cruising gear, we have air con, solar, genset, watermaker, heavy ground tackle, large battery bank, electric winches. Our boat is a life support system for two retired people it is comfortable and swift, NOT fast!

Normally we pass most boats sailing probably more so due to their lack of trimming or not riding windshifts.

As far as speed goes Lagoons as cruising boats are not the slowest by any means i would rate them as being in the 55-60% position, a Le Rouge or Catana in the 85% region leaving the Greyhound spot for the lightweight one-offs......

Comfort wise we are very happy our boat suits our lifestyle... Cheers Frank
__________________

__________________
"Political correctness is a creeping sickness that knows no boundaries"
Lagoon4us is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
cruising

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off




Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 00:10.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.