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Old 27-08-2012, 13:12   #46
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

The silence from 420 owners is deafening to me right now!

Or maybe they're all out cruising at really comfortable speeds so are too busy to be wasting time on internet forums?
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Old 27-08-2012, 13:17   #47
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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The silence from 420 owners is deafening to me right now!

Or maybe they're all out cruising at really comfortable speeds so are too busy to be wasting time on internet forums?
There's one in front of me right now, but anchored.......
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Old 28-08-2012, 17:04   #48
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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The silence from 420 owners is deafening to me right now!
...

Yes, by contrast I just noticed a thread on the 440 with loads of very favorable owner comments.

I have not sailed the 420, but I have sailed 44 and the 50 and was surprised how well they both perform given their somewhat bulky appearance. And, although I was initially skeptical, the fly bridge is quite well done.
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Old 28-08-2012, 17:47   #49
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Frankly, I think that this is unlikely, IF you really mean average speeds for a whole passage. My observation is that most of us tend to say "average" speed when we mean "average of the best speeds obtained on a trip".

We often sail in the company of cruising cats here on teh East coast of Oz. A few of them have been pretty fast, and have waxed our butts. But the majority are pretty ordinary, even off the wind, and are certainly NOT averaging anywhere near 8 knots, and the vast majority just turn on the engines if windward work is required. I don't object to this practice, but feel that it should be included in the statements about "average speeds".

Cruising cats have many attributes, and are deservedly popular, especially on the Queensland coast where conditions favor them. But their claims of great sailing speeds are all too often not demonstrable in the real world.

Cheers,

Jim

Perhaps a little out ... our trip from Cape Town to Fortaleza took us 21 days (in fact 20 and 3/4 days) ... admittedly we had exceptionally strong winds ... distance is about 3730NM and then we had to slow her right down on the last leg to avoid arriving at night.

That is an AVERAGE of 7.4 knots
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Old 28-08-2012, 20:08   #50
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Perhaps a little out ... our trip from Cape Town to Fortaleza took us 21 days (in fact 20 and 3/4 days) ... admittedly we had exceptionally strong winds ... distance is about 3730NM and then we had to slow her right down on the last leg to avoid arriving at night.

That is an AVERAGE of 7.4 knots
G'Day Impi,

Well mate, that sounds like a great passage for sure. That route has the reputation for being one of the world's great sails, and it sounds like you dialed it in well. And I appreciate that what you are quoting is indeed a true average for a passage. Well done!

The best passage we've ever done was between Pt Vila Vanuatu and Gladstone, Qld where we averaged 180 mpd anchor up to anchor down. That's only a bit over 1000 miles, so not as good a trial as your much longer passage. We have had 200 mile days, but it is a lot of work for the two of us, and we don't often press that hard for a whole 24 hours. Somehow that extra twenty miles per day takes a whole lot more work!

And for those who whine that when cruising speed doesn't matter... well, it does for some folks, including me and Ann (despite being old farts)!

Cheers

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Old 28-08-2012, 20:51   #51
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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G'Day Impi,

Well mate, that sounds like a great passage for sure. That route has the reputation for being one of the world's great sails, and it sounds like you dialed it in well. And I appreciate that what you are quoting is indeed a true average for a passage. Well done!

The best passage we've ever done was between Pt Vila Vanuatu and Gladstone, Qld where we averaged 180 mpd anchor up to anchor down. That's only a bit over 1000 miles, so not as good a trial as your much longer passage. We have had 200 mile days, but it is a lot of work for the two of us, and we don't often press that hard for a whole 24 hours. Somehow that extra twenty miles per day takes a whole lot more work!

And for those who whine that when cruising speed doesn't matter... well, it does for some folks, including me and Ann (despite being old farts)!

Cheers

Jim
Hi Jim,

Yeah, and for two up that is really terrific sailing!

We had the kite up in winds that were actually too strong for it and eventually decided to fly the two genoa's up front in the stronger stuff ... it worked a charm and we felt we had it more under control.

We sailed from Cape Town to Fortaleza non stop and that route had us in some unusually ugly conditions whereas a mate of ours on a cat named Champolion departed same time but went viz. St Helena and Ascension Islands ... says they had lighter winds and calmer seas the entire journey.

Lets not forget about the terrific current that swept us along as we reached Brazil ... even with the sail reefed and the genoa furled we were fetching too much speed for avoiding a landfall at night.

Ana and I were totally exhausted 'out of our socks' when we arrived in Fortaleza ... I am quite happy to just cruise now ... in fact I love it when we are gliding along in calm seas anywhere around 7-9 knots ... boat feels great and we are able to relax and read, listen to a bit of music and enjoy the seagulls, fresh air and sun ... that's when we feel Impi is at her best ... and, yes, agreed that this would not be an average speed on a long crossing in varying wind speeds and conditions without working at it 24/7 (which is not why I am cruising).

200 mile days are GREAT days ... especially for two ... we were three!

cheers
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Old 28-08-2012, 21:14   #52
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

226 L420 and L421s made. Lagoon doesn't divide that figure up between the 2 boats.
Top 10 Cat Manufacturers
There are so many threads on 420s. This one only has 51 pages. Maybe what you seek is in there.
Lagoon 420 Owners & Fans
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Old 31-08-2012, 22:52   #53
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Bazcatana here,

It is hard to be objective here, you all sound like a little of this and a little of that will do. I guess you right, depending on what you want.

I keep coming back to the 6 things a Cat needs to sail well, if you buy a production Cat (no names) you get zero out of 6 for sailing ability and 10 out of 10 for comfort.

If you take the following and put them in the design pot you get Production Cats with a score of ZERO for sailing. 1) Low Bridge-deck clearance. 2) Small sail area. 3) Skegs. 4) Heavy. 5) Fat Hulls. 6) Not designed for speed.

There you are, SCORE ZERO, a total compromise on sailing to the best of it's ability. So now you have it, each element required is not a 100% it is less then that, so if 50 / 75% for each elements is OK for you, then that's what you end up with, total compromise.

I forgot to mention, you can pull the rope, ease the sheet, turn the wheel, set the Anchor, but is that sailing or Floating??

This is the SAILING FORUM after all, buckets and spades are in another department.

All the very best to you all and that includes Coops, Factor, tuskie and FLL Catsailer, my new friends in the Forum.

Barry Parkinson
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Old 31-08-2012, 23:07   #54
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Bazcatana here,
This is the SAILING FORUM after all, buckets and spades are in another department.
Barry Parkinson
Um ... actually, it's a CRUISERS Forum. Take an AC34 and you have 6 of 6 for sailing, but zero for CRUISING!

Please stick to the thread topics Mr Parkinson - this one was about speeds of cruising cats, not about how cruising cats suck compared to Tornados or whatever.
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Old 31-08-2012, 23:17   #55
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Um ... actually, it's a CRUISERS Forum. Take an AC34 and you have 6 of 6 for sailing, but zero for CRUISING!

Please stick to the thread topics Mr Parkinson - this one was about speeds of cruising cats, not about how cruising cats suck compared to Tornados or whatever.
Exactly, maybe he had two pages open at the same time and was confused.
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Old 01-09-2012, 00:22   #56
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Originally Posted by bazcatana View Post
Bazcatana here,

It is hard to be objective here, you all sound like a little of this and a little of that will do. I guess you right, depending on what you want.

I keep coming back to the 6 things a Cat needs to sail well, if you buy a production Cat (no names) you get zero out of 6 for sailing ability and 10 out of 10 for comfort.

If you take the following and put them in the design pot you get Production Cats with a score of ZERO for sailing. 1) Low Bridge-deck clearance. 2) Small sail area. 3) Skegs. 4) Heavy. 5) Fat Hulls. 6) Not designed for speed.

There you are, SCORE ZERO, a total compromise on sailing to the best of it's ability. So now you have it, each element required is not a 100% it is less then that, so if 50 / 75% for each elements is OK for you, then that's what you end up with, total compromise.

I forgot to mention, you can pull the rope, ease the sheet, turn the wheel, set the Anchor, but is that sailing or Floating??

This is the SAILING FORUM after all, buckets and spades are in another department.

All the very best to you all and that includes Coops, Factor, tuskie and FLL Catsailer, my new friends in the Forum.

Barry Parkinson
Gee ... who ate your lunch?

Barry, I think there is definitely a 'balance' in these things and somewhere in the middle lies the truth! It certainly is not as 'simple' as you point out here.
I have a friend who is a marine architect and am amazed at how complex this argument could become.

As for sailing or floating ... Perhaps look up the meaning of the word 'sailing' in wikipedia ... lets take their word for the meaning of it ... !

Most sailors on this forum are cruisers (I think) ... when we speak of speed, close hauled ability etc. we speak of 'cruising cats' not racing machines ... we speak of production cats such as Catana's, Leopards, Lagoons, Seawind etc.
Gunboat moves to a new page...

I agree that if one can 'pull the rope, ease the sheet, turn the wheel, set the anchor that that can't be classified as sailing.

However, when that hull moves through the water, you have movement through the water ... you have moved away from ZERO and you are sailing!

Of course there are varying degrees of sailing and yes, to a certain extent your '6' factors play a role, but there are many more factors to this and to the contrary, in some situations (we operate in a changing sea and weather state all the time), some of your 'positives' in design become 'negatives'.

High deck / bridge clearance with high hulls = windage (of course dagger boards will help this situation).

Hull design (displacement) ... no good having a light boat with a crap design below the water line!

folding props for example ....

etc. etc. etc.

Common guys, lets stay real here ... this is CRUISERS FORUM!
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Old 01-09-2012, 18:17   #57
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Cat fight!
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Old 02-09-2012, 00:48   #58
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Cat compromise fight even better
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Old 02-09-2012, 13:25   #59
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Of course mono owners never disagree. The canoe stern full displacement heavy ketch rig versus the lighter canting keel etc etc.
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Old 02-09-2012, 13:31   #60
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Known as Dog fight, grab the lead!!! Woops i mean leeed.....
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