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Old 23-08-2012, 03:15   #16
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Unless the cat is extremely long and thin (Outremer) or short and fat (heavenly twins), speeds will be roughly comparable - once you have enough wind. The real question is at what wind speed you can turn off the engines and start sailing. Our FP Athena 38 is comparable in speed with a Lagoon 38 in fresh winds but its lighter weight and slightly greater sail area means it will sail faster in light winds.
Suggest you look at Gregar Tarjan's book and the Multihull Dynamics for the data and coefficiants that allow you to compare from the armchair.
Off the top of my head in enough wind a 40 foot cruising cat will do 6.5 to 7 kts upwind and 8 - 10 kts off the wind in normal cruising trim. Folding props will add and ocean crossing load will subtract from that.
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Old 23-08-2012, 05:33   #17
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I don't have any experience with the 420 but did charter a 380 for two weeks. The room and comfort were fantastic (up to than just mono experience); sailing was rather disappointing. I was hoping teens. Broad reach at 23 knots (no reef) and later up to 28 knots (1 reef) produced a max of 10.4 knots. For the rest speeds were similar to a 393 mono (7-8 knots only). Found out later that charterco wants you to reef a little sooner; was simply following the manufacturers instructions and enjoying myself.

My only other experience is on a Fastcat; that boat really flies! When I crewed there was not a lot of wind; we did manage (without really trying) 9 knots easily at less than 15 knots of wind. If speed is what you like I wouldn't look at Lagoons. They are comfortable but sluggish. I believe some Fastcats are on the market.

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Old 23-08-2012, 05:50   #18
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Originally Posted by sigmasailor View Post
I don't have any experience with the 420 but did charter a 380 for two weeks. The room and comfort were fantastic (up to than just mono experience); sailing was rather disappointing. I was hoping teens. Broad reach at 23 knots (no reef) and later up to 28 knots (1 reef) produced a max of 10.4 knots. For the rest speeds were similar to a 393 mono (7-8 knots only). Found out later that charterco wants you to reef a little sooner; was simply following the manufacturers instructions and enjoying myself.

My only other experience is on a Fastcat; that boat really flies! When I crewed there was not a lot of wind; we did manage (without really trying) 9 knots easily at less than 15 knots of wind. If speed is what you like I wouldn't look at Lagoons. They are comfortable but sluggish. I believe some Fastcats are on the market.

Eric
Most charter cats only run a main and small headsail, to get any of these heavier boats they need to run a Code Zero for good reaching.

As i said previous we get half windspeed plus 20% and thats without a Code Zero or folding props.

Folding Props alone will give a knot.

Frank
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Old 23-08-2012, 05:55   #19
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I would classify the FastCat as a performance cruiser like the Outremer and a lot of money has been spent in making it light, thats why it flies in light winds. Its also very expensive. Our previous boat a FP Maldives had 600 sq ft of sail on 3 tonnes and would eat our Athena ~900 sq ft on 5.5 tonnes in everything except comfort.

My view is that if you want to sail as much as possible in normal coastal or mediterranean conditions, the Sail Area/Displacement ratio is a key indicator. Its less important where you can guarantee a good wind e.g. trade winds, Caribean, West Australia.

Like all things a cruising boat is a trade between Performance, Comfort and Price, to have all of these is expensive.
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Old 23-08-2012, 06:17   #20
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I use 6.2kts for planning purposes. I find being slightly conservative makes for happy crew when we arrive early, which happens most of the time. The 160nm/day is a good number. Obviously load and weather can/will change that number significantly.
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Old 23-08-2012, 07:20   #21
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

We also use 6kts for planning (DotDun's boat is 3' longer, so he uses 6.2kts ). We reef to keep it around 8kts max. As Lagoon4us said, the boat is our home and we are not on schedules, so don't feel the need to ever run it full out. If we weren't so heavily loaded, those numbers would be 6.5kt for planning and 9kts max (and we would reach those numbers in lighter winds).

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Old 23-08-2012, 16:49   #22
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

We have a Dragonfly 1200 tri and use 6knots as planning speed. Our flat water sailing speed is 0-14 knots depending in conditions, and we cruise under power at 7.5-8. We sail as slow as 4 knots but usually turn on the engine below 5, which is around what I consider the "speed floor".

In the end I consider "average speed" as a number on the GPS to be looked at when the trip is over. Trying to project ahead, it's quite elusive.
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Old 23-08-2012, 19:49   #23
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Originally Posted by btrayfors View Post
I would suggest that there are at least two datasets which can provide you with "objective" data to estimate the speed of multihulls:

1. race results for, e.g., the Caribbean 1500 and other ocean races;
...

The first is more likely to be useful in estimating the kinds of speeds you might expect from a loaded cruising boat.
...
I agree, if what the OP is really after is long term averages then something like C1500 or ARC would be the best sample.

The problem with unstructured responses from individual boat owners/operators, even if they are the specific make/model which interests you, is that the number of variables which go into long term averages is large. Even when considered independently of make and model of boat you still have factors like average wind speed and direction, sea state, current, breakage, and the skill of the crew running the boat. Often the conditions, and skill of the crew, make a bigger difference in daily runs than the boat itself. Presumably, these variables would average out across the fleet in a larger event and give a good indication of the long range performance of at least categories, if not specific make/models, of boats.

You probably won't get a good sample from these events for a specific make and model of boat, but you could also look for polar diagrams of that specific boat.

Also, comparing to boats sailed by recreational charterers is really not fair to the boat. As a charter captain, I see a lot of boats sailed badly by the "bare-ly-boater" crowd. If you blew by a rented boat -- big woop -- race somebody who knows how to sail a cat.
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Old 24-08-2012, 22:53   #24
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

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Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
We have a Dragonfly 1200 tri and use 6knots as planning speed. Our flat water sailing speed is 0-14 knots depending in conditions, and we cruise under power at 7.5-8. We sail as slow as 4 knots but usually turn on the engine below 5, which is around what I consider the "speed floor".

In the end I consider "average speed" as a number on the GPS to be looked at when the trip is over. Trying to project ahead, it's quite elusive.
I agree with your post it is very simular in speed as our Gemini 105Mc. We have the optional screecher track and 450sq ft screecher on furrler for light air up to 15-20 kt's and get 8 to 10 kt most of the time in good breezes.
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Old 25-08-2012, 06:49   #25
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Thanks guys - helpful insights.

The last cat I sailed was helping out on a delivery of a Gunboat 62 from Sydney to New Zealand - hit 17 knots at one stage and we were being pretty conservative (deep reefed main + jib). The couple who were crewing the boat full time (who have cruised a 36ft cat extensively) looked at me and (knowing my plans) said: "You're screwed. Forget you were ever on this boat the minute we hit the dock!"

So ... I'm going in with I think realistic expectations around performance, just got a bit scared reading a thread in the Lagoon forum that made it sound like the 420s were outliers in how bad they sailed and I've never had any experience on one.

Who knows, may end up with something else still ...
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Old 25-08-2012, 07:26   #26
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

Why stick to Production? A good Pescott or Oram might fill the bill? Or a schionning wilderness 14 metre or cosmos 13metre? All for affordable dollars? There is a quick Farrier F41 going at the moment as well.
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Old 25-08-2012, 08:11   #27
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I did 3000 Nm in 21 days, GPS tracking, Fiji to Bundaberg, I had 3 days off in Vanuatu, So it worked out to be 18 days continuos sailing,

I started off going north due to the winds, I cant sail for ****, At night my boat sailed north, adding lots of miles extra while I tried to sleep,
It also added a lot of miles to my trip during the day when I could not sail south or west,

This is only to give you cruising blue water miles average on a 34 foot Cat.
Running on the diesel at 5 to 7 knots with no wind, 2 to 4 knots head on into the wind and waves on the diesel.

I was loaded down with all the bells and whistles you can put on a Gemini, plus a spare for everything on board, 60 gallons Freshwater, 60 gallons of diesel, plus 7 X 5 gallon containers of diesel, plus food for a month, An extensive tool kit, including electric tools, Plus Plus Plus, 5 Batterys, water maker, And smack on the Plimsol line, But level all the way through,

3000 NM X 18 days in all weathers, = Average 166 NM per day,

I am not a racer, This is what it worked out to be after I did it, It is a lot short of the 200 NM a day I thought I would get,
I did think 10 NM an hour was quite feasible, Before I left for home, But almost 7 Knots an hour average, isnt too bad,

I think you should get 7 knots on a cruising Cat with out any trouble, Thats an average over a lot of ocean miles,

If your a cruiser I dont think the speed matters a great deal,

If your a racer, Its a bare hull with sails, And skinny people on board,
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Old 25-08-2012, 08:29   #28
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Quote:
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I'm looking at a Lagoon 420 and have been reading all the threads bashing its performance.

So ... the racer in me is getting scarred!

What are the actual cruising averages for those of you who have cruised extensively on a ~40ft production cat?

Hoping that actual cruisers with boats contribute and this isn't a speculative "I've heard that ..." thread. Please indicate if you're boat is loaded with gear.

Thanks in advance.
We are cruising in the Med on a Lagoon 380. With little wind, we've motored a lot between Genoa and here in the Ionian. Our average (not peak) speed under motor on longish stretches is around 6.5 knots.

We just saw some Ozzies on a Gunboat here in Greece. Beautiful boat.

Cheers, Ange
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Old 25-08-2012, 08:35   #29
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

We were a little over loaded with all the crap for a Pacific crossing, but last month we did 2970 direct miles from Galapagos to the Marquesas (maybe 3100 miles with a few dog legs) in 17 days while using 4 litres of fuel (just for leaving and entering the respective ports).

Be careful of those that give you their long distance averages when they do not tell you how much they motored! Ya gotta talk to sailors, not motor-sailors.

Unless you intend to be one, of course!
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Old 25-08-2012, 09:01   #30
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Re: Average Cruising Speed - Production Cats

I forgot to mention the time I motored was about four days in total, Day light hours only, Day and a half, no wind, the rest with the wind directly on the nose,
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