Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Rating: Thread Rating: 6 votes, 5.00 average. Display Modes
Old 20-03-2014, 08:32   #1426
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,596
Images: 240
Re: Atlantic Delivery

The purpose of a post-accident investigation & analysis is to determine the cause or causes of the incident, to identify any unsafe conditions, acts, or procedures that contributed to the incident (fact finding), and to recommend corrective action to prevent similar incidents (analysis & conclusions) - not to find fault.
Itís how we develop useful experience.
__________________

__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is online now  
Old 20-03-2014, 11:42   #1427
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Gord, as usual you hit the nail on the head - and if he is not tired of us all, I suspect that Boatie would be quite happy to answer any questions that might provide further elucidation on what happened and what, if anything, he might have done differently. And Hud - I couldn't agree more. I have a 160 gallon a day watermaker, but still keep my tanks full in case it fails. I have back up halyards for the main, headsail and staysail/storm jib and carry older, but usable sails as spares. I have a complete back-up chartplotter with cable and antenna still in the box. If both failed, I have a handheld GPS, an Ipad with charts and in addition, paper charts for the areas I intend to sail. Redundacy is critical in systems that you can't live without.

The bottom line, however, is that while I prefer the freedom (and extra water for showers etc.) that the watermaker provides, I could proceed without it. I also prefer using the chartplotter (works in sunshine and will handle moisture), over the ipad or the paper charts, but again, I could get by if they fail. My solar panels, wind generator and large house battery bank are sufficent to supply all electrical needs for nav lights and the chartplotter/ autopilot indefiniitely, although on a longer passage wtihout functional diesels, I might have to cut back on using the radar, playing DVD's, the stereo, use of fans etc. Heck, I might even have to shut off one of the refrigerators!

If the autopilot fails, I can steer by hand. Alternatively, if the hydraulic steering pump fails, I could steer with the autopilot (it has a separate hydraulic pump and ram ). And if both failed, I could use the emergency tiller (although it takes some effort and leaves the helmsperson situated precariously on the aft deck). If I had to, I carry sufficient lines to steer with drogues and properly balanced sails.

Radios? I have a single side-band radio and a sat phone with a back-up battery ( although as it is a Globalstar, its coverage would be sporadic). If I was close to shore (or a ship, or another boat) I could use one of two fixed station VHF's or, with complete electrical system failure, my hand-held VHF with a back-up battery pack.

If my running lights failed, I would not have back-up tricolor lights, although I do have a kerosene anchor light that I could at least hoist aloft and various flashilghts I could use to light up the sails.

I am sure most people take the same approach on their own vessels and, while we prefer to live with our luxuries and all systems functioning properly, we could survive without them. Indeed, in my experience it seems that when you are prepared for something to go wrong, it seldom does.

Brad
__________________

__________________
Southern Star is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 11:48   #1428
Registered User
 
GeoPowers's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Gulfport, MS
Boat: Beneteau 393
Posts: 947
Images: 27
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
It is not about being pro or anti boatman.

You are asking a reasonable question.

What you don't understand is that what you want to happen, is not likely to happen.

This was a delivery, a job for money, there is an owner is involved. Maybe in 5 years the story can be told and a few lessons learned. My understanding is that what you want to happen, is not going to happen.

If you want to address these issues in a more general way, divorced from this delivery, then you might want to start a new thread. Many kind regards. Sincerely, Neal

Edited
Well said!

It is wise for Boatie to not to answer everyone's questions- it just doesn't make good business sense.

Perhaps someone could create a scenario in the Challenges sub-forum that had the key elements of a "certain" voyage. Then we could theorize as much we want about the reasons things happened the way they did, and how we would do things the same or different. Of course, no one would know the right answers, but that has never stopped CF from discussing something before!

Then this thread could be more akin to sitting around the bar listening to a buddy of yours tell some sea stories about his last underway, which usually involves minimal nick-picking and second-guessing from his friends (except stories regarding the opposite sex). This is what I am personally more interested in, anyway!

After all, we still haven't seen any crew pics!!!!

Frank
GeoPowers is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 11:50   #1429
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 4,974
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Brad, you have obviously done this before but if I were you I would carry some sort of spare autopilot/vane. I say this from experience having hand steered for 2 weeks on one of my trips....never again!
__________________
robert sailor is online now  
Old 20-03-2014, 11:54   #1430
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Atlantic Delivery

And do you know how to find Polaris(N) if the clouds are in the way but all you can see Cassiopeia or the Summer Cross? Do you know how to find E or W using Orion and measure your latitude?
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 14:22   #1431
CF Adviser

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Wherever our boat is; Playa Zaragoza, Isla Margarita
Boat: 1994 Solaris Sunstream 40
Posts: 2,439
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Salty Monkey I failed to mention that I have a plastic sextant because my efforts at getting an accurate fix are anything but promising. Still, probably better than eye - balling the stars. However, if my 2 chartplotters/cables/antennas, my ipad with gps/charts and my handheld gps, handheld compass and plastic sextant and paper charts were all destroyed, I guess I better be able to do as you say.......
Mind you by then, if I am still alive, I would assume I would be in a liferaft and would have already activated my gpirb!

Robersailor I tend to agree - I should definitely buy a back-up below deck autopilot before undertaking an Atlantic crossing, although I suspect I can manage the voyages I have planned in the next couple of years - from NYC to Bermuda and from there to the Caribbean, without a back up system. If my existing autopilot failed in the course of either of those passages, I will have at least 3 crew to aid with helming. Right now I have no plans for an Atlantic crossing for at least the next 5 years and by then, we'll see.

Vane gear just wouldn't work on my cat, I'm afraid. I have given some thought to a decent wheel pilot as a back-up, especially if I am able to get my exisitng rudder position indicator to function through sea-talk with the wheel pilot: a rudder position indicator is required as I have hydraulic steering. While I could always buy a compatible rudder position indicator, having to remove the existing one, install the new one (which would probably require different brackets) and then run the wiring up to the wheel pilot would probably be more bother than it is worth. In that case I would be better off doing what I have done with my chartplotter - buying a complete second unit so that I could replace on a plug and play basis, only the part/s that malfunctioned.

Brad
__________________
Southern Star is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 14:53   #1432
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Atlantic Delivery

@southernstar my god,i'm scared to death of all those gizmo toys you have ss. Its like being in a house of mirrors with a bunch of screaming katts and klowns. SaltyMonkey would be glued to the electronics all the time instead of noticing the outside GPS's that hangs naturally in the sky. Gearbots everywhere u know?
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 15:52   #1433
Registered User
 
ccannan's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2003
Boat: Alubat, OVNI 47
Posts: 197
Images: 5
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flamingo1 View Post
With (a) water running thin, (2) speeds at 2-3kts, (III) hundreds of miles to go and pure tedium of sitting still for days on a small boat in a very large ocean - how do you not go batshit crazy?

I get frustrated and irritated sitting at a traffic light that seems to last forever - I cannot imagine being becalmed with broken equipmenet and dwindling supplies - for several days on end.
I always tell people who ask me if sailing isn't boring, that if you are bored, and not busy doing something to help the boat and crew arrive safely at the intended destination, then you are doing something wrong. There is always a long list of things to do while making a long passage some of which include: navigating, preparing food, maintaining communications (receiving weather faxes), maintaining onboard equipment, repairing onboard equipment, and of course trying to get some decent rest (sleep). I don't imagine boatman61 was bored, I imagine he wracked his brains and tried his best to get the systems working, maybe changing alternators, troubleshooting the genset, reducing electrical loads, taking inventory of potable drinking water, etc...
__________________
Chip
ccannan is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 16:19   #1434
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Mackay,QLD, Australia
Boat: planning a approx 45ft cat
Posts: 3,651
Images: 3
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Southern Star View Post
I am not suggesting that Boaty is, or would ever see himself as perfect, thin-skinned or immune to criticism. Indeed, read his posts and one can readily see that he is self-effacing in the extreme!

Nor am I suggesting that no lessons can be learned from this delivery. What bothers me is that some of those who were the most directly critical of him and his approach did not first ask him first if there was anything he would have done differently. Any lessons that he has learned. Afterall, he was there and we were not.

Perhaps they should have first asked if he thought he could have arranged a shake-down cruise prior to departure and if not, why not. Perhaps they might have first asked what, if any efforts were made to start the diesels. Perhaps they may have first asked why he accepted the tow prior to criticizing him for taking it (and his ultimate answer above gives more than ample reason). Just saying....

I for one was glad that Boaty shared his adventure with us. Lets face it, how many of us would want to be placed under the microscope of CF in similar circumstances? In exchange I would like to think that we would give him (or anyone ) the benefit of the doubt, or at least a reasonable opportunity to explain himself prior to going on the offensive.

Brad
__________________
downunder is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 17:47   #1435
Moderator
 
JPA Cate's Avatar

Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: aboard, cruising in Australia
Boat: Sayer 46' Solent rig sloop
Posts: 10,719
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by GordMay View Post
The purpose of a post-accident investigation & analysis is to determine the cause or causes of the incident, to identify any unsafe conditions, acts, or procedures that contributed to the incident (fact finding), and to recommend corrective action to prevent similar incidents (analysis & conclusions) - not to find fault.
Itís how we develop useful experience.
I agree, Gordie,

And I think we should wait for Boatie to lead it, if he chooses to do so.

Please, everybody, write and post here using your own good discretion.

Ann
__________________
Ann, with Jim, aboard US s/v Insatiable II, in Oz, very long term cruisers
JPA Cate is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 18:00   #1436
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 2,441
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Simplicity vs complexity: (I'll avoid discussing marine systems, because I know how defensive that gets everyone, about whatever it is they happen to have)

A simple car heater controller is basically a valve. It relies on us knowing if we want the interior hotter or colder. That never seemed to me to be asking too much, but hey....

If that valve jammed open, we could clamp the hose when we got hot; if it jammed shut we could swap in a bit of tubing -- and clamp the hose when we got hot.

A "climate control" heater controller is basically our mother on a chip. It takes inputs from sensors inside and outside the car to decide what to do, "adjusting our blankets" so we can suck on our dummy (US: pacifier) and think beautiful thoughts.

Consequently, when (say) the one of the temperature sensors develops a fault, the heater will either fry us or freeze us, or alternate between the two. And it will tell us a fault code if we're lucky, so that we can go and find an adult to tell it to.

Like giving a baby a scrap of paper which says "my mother is a psycho who needs a lobotomy"

And if you think you can still find something which looks like a valve and swap in a piece of tube, well perhaps you've been living under a rock for the past decade or three...

Modern boats with complex systems do not typically just get by on their simple systems when the complex systems fault out.

Increasingly, they do not HAVE simple systems which can be kept running 'irregardless'.
And increasingly, the complex systems do not have either a "manual override" or a "dumb mode" to permit them to keep running.

We've seen this with cars, where electric windows initially had manual overrides, until our sensibilities got blunted by familiarity.

Now, when your battery or electrical system shorts out miles from anywhere, you had better not have any windows open, because then you can't leave the vehicle. If nobody comes past, or a downpour does, that's just the price you pay for ....

For what? How freakin hard was it to wind our own freakin windows, for Pete's sake?
__________________
Andrew Troup is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 18:13   #1437
Long Range Cruiser
 
MarkJ's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Australian living on "Sea Life" currently in England.
Boat: Beneteau 393 "Sea Life"
Posts: 12,828
Images: 25
Re: Atlantic Delivery

This thread is a good one to refer back to just in case I get the stupid idea of sharing a passage, in real time, on this forum.



Could you just imagine having a few web cams set up around the boat and a thread connecting them. Crikey, you couldnt even have a crap in the morning without some lame-brain telling you ya gunna die because its not a Wilcox and Crittenden.... And the toilet papers all wrong.
__________________
Notes on a Circumnavigation.
OurLifeAtSea.com

Somalia Pirates and our Convoy
MarkJ is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 18:23   #1438
Registered User
 
Sailing Cowboy's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Home Port: West Palm Beach, Live: Seattle
Boat: Beneteau Oceanis 473
Posts: 315
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
This thread is a good one to refer back to just in case I get the stupid idea of sharing a passage, in real time, on this forum.



Could you just imagine having a few web cams set up around the boat and a thread connecting them. Crikey, you couldnt even have a crap in the morning without some lame-brain telling you ya gunna die because its not a Wilcox and Crittenden.... And the toilet papers all wrong.
No ****.......the early explorers would have been crucified, stoned and keel hauled at the closest port.
__________________
IYT Yachtmaster Offshore Sail & Power Instructor
ICC Certificate of Competency Instructor
Sailing Cowboy is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 18:24   #1439
cruiser

Join Date: May 2010
Location: SF Bay Area; Former Annapolis and MA Liveaboard.
Boat: Looking and saving for my next...mid-atlantic coast
Posts: 6,197
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Yes what started as an unselfish act of one, turned into a selfish barrage by the many.
__________________
SaltyMonkey is offline  
Old 20-03-2014, 22:25   #1440
Registered User

Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 108
Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkJ View Post
This thread is a good one to refer back to just in case I get the stupid idea of sharing a passage, in real time, on this forum.



Could you just imagine having a few web cams set up around the boat and a thread connecting them. Crikey, you couldnt even have a crap in the morning without some lame-brain telling you ya gunna die because its not a Wilcox and Crittenden.... And the toilet papers all wrong.
Everybody knows there is no substitute to Charmin !
__________________

__________________
Jimmy Jazz is offline  
Closed Thread

Tags
delivery

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Looking for a Buddy Boat - Block Island to Norfolk or Atlantic City Weehappy Atlantic & the Caribbean 16 10-10-2016 18:07
Atlantic 48 vs Switch 51 Catastroff Multihull Sailboats 33 25-04-2013 13:38
For Sale: Atlantic 44 in Greece ionionsails Classifieds Archive 0 11-02-2013 14:15
Quick Release Dinghy for MOB shorebird General Sailing Forum 13 26-01-2012 08:00
Crew Wanted: Delivery Required - Phuket to Brisbane Donkey Crew Archives 4 25-11-2011 20:09



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:01.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.