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Old 18-03-2014, 22:54   #1336
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

I, too, am pos(t)ing in this thread
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Old 18-03-2014, 22:57   #1337
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by SaltyMonkey View Post
Palarran, take some advice. Stay in Greece, a place where pretentious bankruptcy has equal value.

I have no idea what you mean by this. But, I do plan to stay in Greece.

Where do you get these amazing forecasts? Being serious, I'd really like to know how you can track these weather patterns across the whole US and have them be accurate. Is it a website? The darn weather guys here can't seem to get it right.

As far as the comments about hindsight and commenting on it, that's pretty much what happens on this forum on every thread. Everyone is looking at the past and making comments about the present. There has to be a take-away or what's the point.
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Old 18-03-2014, 23:15   #1338
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
I have no idea what you mean by this. But, I do plan to stay in Greece.

Where do you get these amazing forecasts? Being serious, I'd really like to know how you can track these weather patterns across the whole US and have them be accurate. Is it a website? The darn weather guys here can't seem to get it right.

As far as the comments about hindsight and commenting on it, that's pretty much what happens on this forum on every thread. Everyone is looking at the past and making comments about the present. There has to be a take-away or what's the point.
Weather is rather consistent here actually, but try weathernews.

Takeaway I am learning has become of less value to me, as I see it's more non-determanistic if not chaotic. Too many things can go wrong and next time a whole other set happens. You don't have enough fingers for the dike. There has to be another way to look at this Take a step back from the knowledge. Cannot explain easy typing on iPad. I'm cautious and plan to a t. Learning there is a step higher and sometimes letting go of that will make you better.
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Old 18-03-2014, 23:17   #1339
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

I reckon with Boatie61's attitude and aptitude he had more than enough luxury stuff for the trip. One of his minimalist colleagues delivered a boat 8,000 miles from Mexico to the Marshall Islands this year much less equipment and preparation.

"An emaciated man whose boat washed up on a remote Pacific atoll this week claims he survived 16 months adrift on the Pacific, floating more than 12,500 kilometers (8,000 miles) from Mexico, a researcher said Friday.

The man, with long beard and hair, was discovered Thursday when his 24-foot fibreglass boat with propellerless engines floated onto the reef at Ebon Atoll and he was spotted by two locals."
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Old 19-03-2014, 00:07   #1340
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Insequent,

Your attitude that the hirers of delivery skippers owe the skippers a duty of care does you credit. It does not, however, reflect that it's a pretty competitive way to earn a living (lots of guys, not an excess of boats), and unfortunately, there are hirers who are downright miserly! And irresponsible, comes to that. But it is the world those men have chosen to work in. The skippers have to be on top of their game to stay safe.

Actually, I think the water issue was the most appalling. The owner may not have drunk from the tanks. They may never have been cleaned out, or treated for organisms. Maybe it would have helped if they had brought water purification tablets, but it's not something I would have thought of. Would now, though. To me, the whole "water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink", is one damned scary picture. Incidentally, our boat has foot pumps for the water and spares for the pumps, so not dependent on electricity for water, and could also be pressurised using the dinghy pump to get water out of them.

We had another Lagoon owner write in and say he'd take less tank water and more bottled fluids. That's certainly one approach. We always fill our tanks (we carry 800 liters) before we go offshore. We have never carried bottled water. One time, we made a mistake with our record keeping, and thought the starboard tank was full--we didn't check--and we were WRONG, it was empty. A good lesson. We pay more attention, now.

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Old 19-03-2014, 04:30   #1341
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

[QUOTE=atoll;1496206]
Quote:
Originally Posted by donradcliffe View Post

ditto but i would think it would have required a bit of canibalisation in day light hours,with the risk of losing what use he had of the already comprimised autopilot,we also don't know what tools and spares the vessel had onboard.

as things stood phill felt confident to get to horta under sail,where more permernant repairs could be effected,charging an already comprimised battery could also have unforseen consequences.
This was my thinking, It brings to mind the cascade affect.

For me, this is an important lesson. These are the things I learn on CF. Sailing manuals teach you "how" to do things, but not when or if. When something breaks it can lead to other failures, cascade effect, and sometimes that is the direct result of the skippers response to the first failure. Every sailor has strengths and weaknesses, a set of skills, and if you are smart, knowing your strengths and weaknesses will have a bearing on your decision making. For instance, some are wiz electricians, so it would make sense that they have the tools and expertise to fix and electrical problem, were others might make things worse (as atoll suggests).... cascading the problems.

Was there a way to get the main up... some good suggestions here (and I guess boatman is aware of these techniques), but if my strengths are boat handling, all kind of boats in all kinds of weather, and I feel comfortable sailing under genoa alone, and I don't want to get caught with the main up in a squall, .....resulting in further damage to the boat and or person, and I am short crewed.

I imagine the same set of problems that boatman experience could have led another sailor down the wrong path resulting in further damage and or injury.

For instance, the seeming prudent thing to do was send a tow, but that resulted in more damage to the boat than if boatman handled it his way and sailed her in the following day after heaving too over night. Linear thinking and simple logic sometimes can get you in over your head. Not sure if I explained that very well, but I think experience = instincts.

Edit: Not saying we shouldn't dissect.
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Old 19-03-2014, 04:40   #1342
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Yes, Neo,

If Boatie had just been let alone, he'd have got in OK.

That's something not many were willing to bet on. Too bad about that.

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Old 19-03-2014, 04:41   #1343
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

On long passages, I never rely on water maker as a source of drinking water. The water tank is kept half full to save weight and I take a hot shower every day as long as the water maker works. I also use the water from the tank for cooking or making coffee, when it's boiled.
Yes, even on a perfectly prepared boat there are tons of things that can go wrong but I personally wouldn't leave set sail to the north Atlantic with this kind of boat.
I should also say that L 440 and 450 are very dangereous on Offshore with their main sail setup..Way to high to handle even on flat water. There are some lines to do job without the need to go to the mast head but they are easily tripped and fouled.
Overall, the skipper has certainly taken the delivery rather lightly and he's very lucky to get away with that.
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Old 19-03-2014, 05:29   #1344
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

RE: air starting...
Quote:
Originally Posted by poiu View Post
Sounds like a excellent back up if it would work on an ordinary engine. How does it work?
Quote:
Originally Posted by a64pilot View Post
It's a simple air motor like an impact wrench, many years ago a lot of big Diesel trucks were started with air starters, would scare the beezus out of you if you were close and didn't know it was fixing to happen, they weren't quiet things.
Boy howdy... Jump....
There's an old thread about air starters n such...
SCUBA tank to drive a batt charger motor
My story of starting an old 2 lung Danish topsailer is post #52 on this page
SCUBA tank to drive a batt charger motor

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky View Post
Sorry, may be I'm missing something here.
If I'm right all discussion regarding the effect of sending the SECURITE message by Bonne Etoile is rather pointless.
Tomasz
Securite had to be issued by the Phillipino ship...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SmartMove View Post
Hey Boatie, I'm just gonna keep it simple here -- glad you are in port and you and the crew are well. Good luck with the rest of the delivery.
Robyn
Like your style Robyn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coops View Post
Folks are now quick to tell how it could have been done better. Hindsight is such a gift to the judgemental it seems. Me, I'm just happy that they are safe
Coops.
+1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
Indeed ... on a scale where the degree of difficulty of delivering boats is around 10,

the degree of difficulty of telling others how they should have done it rates somewhere around 0.
+100!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sand crab View Post
I would've just put the rope in my teeth and jumped in. I would tow that big bad cat all the way to Spain doing the breaststroke just like Charles Atlas.

Well, I would have done it if I knew how to do the breaststroke
or swim
and if the water was warm,
and if the rope didn't chafe too much. I hate chafe don't you?

Keep using that fabric softener for your undershorts...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate View Post

Actually, I think the water issue was the most appalling. The owner may not have drunk from the tanks. They may never have been cleaned out, or treated for organisms. Maybe it would have helped if they had brought water purification tablets, but it's not something I would have thought of. Would now, though. To me, the whole "water, water everywhere, nor any drop to drink", is one damned scary picture. Incidentally, our boat has foot pumps for the water and spares for the pumps, so not dependent on electricity for water, and could also be pressurised using the dinghy pump to get water out of them.
This is my lesson from the adventure... I don't clean my tanks nearly enough... Every couple of 2-3 years maybe??? Sure it's more work, but now no reason not to add it to the seasonal list...


Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
as things stood phill felt confident to get to horta under sail,where more permernant repairs could be effected,charging an already comprimised battery could also have unforseen consequences.
YES!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neo View Post
Was there a way to get the main up... some good suggestions here (and I guess boatman is aware of these techniques), but if my strengths are boat handling, all kind of boats in all kinds of weather, and I feel comfortable sailing under genoa alone, and I don't want to get caught with the main up in a squall, .....resulting in further damage to the boat and or person, and I am short crewed.
I think you helped a few people understand...
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Old 19-03-2014, 05:39   #1345
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

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Originally Posted by Palarran View Post
It was a mistake for Boatman to leave on a Transatlantic delivery in February with a boat that wasn't totally prepared. And it was also a mistake to not have more than one other person on board. More time needed to be spent (4 days ?) before setting off from Florida in order to prepare the boat. Maybe the water contamination would have been found then.

The owner made a mistake in not having all the systems repaired before Boatman set off. He just bought the boat and almost guaranteed he had a survey. Were any of the items discovered in that survey repaired and any of the systems maintained before departure? He probably wanted to get the boat out of the States and to the EU to effect the repairs. Obviously he knew about the alternators.

Without a doubt Phil knows what he is doing on deliveries. But, if both motors where inoperable, your electrical systems down, your main sail unusable, water contaminated, crew exhausted, and a North Atlantic gale hits - your fubar'ed.

Quite frankly, I'm glad the Port Authority is mandating that the boat be inspected before leaving. They should. Neither Phil or the owner should even think about completing the final stage of this crossing unless the boat is in proper working order. Jury rigging is not what you do before your leaving. Both these guys have a responsibility to each other, the boat, and most importantly the crew to insure everything is in order before leaving.

Proper planning and preparation prevents piss poor performance

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For the record, I disagree with this opinion.

IMO, it's the business of Boatie and the owner and it's not for us to judge let alone having the Port Authority sticking his nose in
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Old 19-03-2014, 05:48   #1346
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Therapy View Post
All your time on CF and you don't understand this is what happens?

Microscopic dissection.

Don't pretend things are not learned from that.

Yeah, but what I learn is more about some of the posters than about the "topic". Maybe I just need a new armchair.
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Old 19-03-2014, 05:49   #1347
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pirate Re: Atlantic Delivery

Okay. lets clear up a few things here..
Alternators were not adequate to run all the systems on there own.. unassisted.. this was 2 fridges, washing machine, nav systems, AP etc..
The electrical problem was spotted 300 miles S of Bermuda and 600 miles N of St Martin but I considered it an inconvenience not a catastrophe and chose to continue to Madeira.. then around 2400+ miles away..
The water problem is something I've experienced before with water taken on board in the US.. treatment is not to the same standard as in Europe and likely why so many Americans will only drink bottled water.. tap water in Oriental smells and tastes like the Neuse.. and that in Lauderdale ended up smelling and tasting like mangrove swamp.. I should have carried more bottled than I did.
My decision to divert to Horta was made when I realised the water was affecting my health (the bottled was for the crew) and lay 650 miles to my NE.. Madeira was still 1300 miles ahead.
The main I have explained lost its second reef in a gale as I ran N.. the 1st (only) serious blow I'd had the whole trip and cranking a big main with dodgy bowels is not on my hot list of ways to 'fill my boots'.. and.. it may come as a surprise but boats move quite well just under Genoa's..
As for the tow.. we have 5 persons here.. Atoll.. who in my opinion did good and his advice to hold back for 36hrs should have been heeded.. the Captain of Praia who I had asked for help and requested he set up his ship/crew for me to come up on his windward side as I had no power and could not start my engines to motor in his lee.. his 'Securitie' was based on the info I had given re my vessels capabilities.. and I don't think he stated that I was adrift and needed rescue at any point..
The owner who got spooked by all the kefuffle going on on here and some of the folk who contacted him overstating the situation..
The 'Rescuer'.. lets face it.. commercial motivation is not going to be sympathetic to 'wait 36hrs'.. what and watch a payday crumble before your eyes.. no way... he'll do all he can to sell his services.. ****.. that's why he's in the job... same as me..
Then there's me.. pissed off skipper with dented professional pride.. a boat turns up and claims a contract with the owner that I be towed in.. knows the owners full name etc.. refusing the tow would have been like telling the owner to do the sexually impossible.. if you want a good reference and payday at the end.. not recommended
The bit not so far mentioned is that the Horta lifeboat went out looking for me when the Navtex message was flashed.. apparently they used over 2000L of fuel looking for me.. sadly no one took the trouble to give or radio them my Spot position updates so they were looking for me based on last position and course supplied by 'Praia' when we parted company..
However I had altered course 12hrs later to the SE on a wind shift to make more E'ing for a favourable approach as the heading I was sailing was taking me W of Faial if I'd continued.. but.. being as I'd not specifically requested a tow/assistance and was under my own propulsion I felt no need to be predictable..
As to the standard of vessels being delivered.. I've delivered boats YM's have walked away from.. that's often what I get for jobs.. I've said before.. I'm a bottom feeder..
I look at the boat and make my call.. only turned down 1 job to date..
But then I've seen disbelief on the faces of folk on their 40-50ftrs as they pass my little Corribee 21 in they middle of the Biscay.. some folk are just plain crazy.. get over it..

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Old 19-03-2014, 05:52   #1348
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

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Yeah, but what I learn is more about some of the posters than about the "topic". Maybe I just need a new armchair.
So true! Maybe not more, it's about 50/50.
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Old 19-03-2014, 05:54   #1349
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

I'm as opinionated as the next guy but 20/20 hindsight is something I'm not crazy about. Everybody is an expert after all is said and done. Just keep this in mind when your judging....had this group not been involved in any way, had no information whatsoever which would have been normal without that Spot gear then Boaty would have arrived, sailed into port which is not that hard and got a tow for a few hundred yards to his berth. Nothing more would have happened, no drama and no need for 20/20 hindsight.
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Old 19-03-2014, 06:02   #1350
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Boatie

While I have the deepest respect for your skills as a mariner, I believe you have rendered an opinion regarding water that you are not qualified to provide.

When was the last time the water tanks on the vessel were cleaned? Was the hose used to fill the tanks clean, or had some dog peed on it? Regarding bottled water, have you tasted the water in Rome or some parts of Eastern Europe? Trust me, I only drink tap water in most of the US and bottled in the EU.

Since this was posted in a public forum, I have to ask if you checked the chlorine residual in the water? Did you add cl to ensure it had no active bacteria? And FWIW the adding of CL to water was started in Europe...

Okay rant over
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