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Old 17-03-2014, 19:57   #1231
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Just a reminder: you can buy starters that use a wound up spring or compressed air. Scuba tanks can start diesel engines
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Old 17-03-2014, 21:03   #1232
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Good to see you posting again Boaty, I'm glad you got in safe and sound!
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Old 17-03-2014, 23:39   #1233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post

That makes sense if we interpret "Electric Issues" as lack of available DC amps

However an alternative interpretation (admittedly more rigorous and hence less fashionable) is that "Electric Issues" ultimately reflect excessive dependence on electricity.

In this case, (subject to clarification) potentially not just to start the motor, but to then use the motor to poke the vessel into the wind so as to get the mainsail up. (Which on large modern vessels may also rely on electric winches)

- - - -

This creeping increase in reliance on what (to my mind) should be 'creature comforts' is worrying. Take marine diesels:

It's not hard to retrofit (even en route) a highly reliable alternative to an electric starter motor, in many cases.

What worries me more is that modern marine diesels are generally dependent on electricity to keep them running (smart injection, etc)

At the moment it's still possible to buy "old school" diesels (capable of running underwater, at a pinch, but which will certainly run without electricity once they're running) and refurb them if necessary, - but what's a feller to do when that supply dries up?
I've never heard of a marine diesel of sailboat size that requires electricity to run (other than for glow plugs and starter). Are there any using electronics?

I've also only used one electric winch, but I'm pretty sure it had the ability to be used manually as well.
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Old 18-03-2014, 03:32   #1234
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Actually modern diesels are very difficult to start other then by starter motor, and it's not possible short of being Michael desoyeaux to hand start them.

In practice if you loose electrical power you will not be able to start a diesel today

Dave


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You can if you have one of these... Startwell Mechanical Starters - Diesel Engine starting - spring starter - back up starter- startwell - simms - manual starter - alternative to electric hydraulic and pneaumatic I don't have personal experience but one of these starters was on the list of ' that's a great idea, must get one' that I never got around to getting. Just like the backup autopilot!
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Old 18-03-2014, 03:59   #1235
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by cwyckham View Post
I've never heard of a marine diesel of sailboat size that requires electricity to run (other than for glow plugs and starter). Are there any using electronics?

I've also only used one electric winch, but I'm pretty sure it had the ability to be used manually as well.
All "common rail" diesels (eg the larger Volvos, ie D3 & D4) require electricity for the fuel injection, and most require it for the engine management systems, electronic shift and throttle, etc.

In the natural course of events this 'improvement' will inevitably trickle down to the small engines.

In the case of the Tier 4 Yanmar engines, which I think came in two years back, they're already downrange as far as 20kW -ish.

Before you know it your engine will have an IP address and be pinging satellites behind your back.
- - - - -

The problems I'm visualising with using a manual override on an electric winch might come when (for example) using it to raise a mainsail (particularly with full battens, fathead and lazyjacks) with no engine power:

if the sail has to be raised when the boat is essentially drifting, the boat may have to be 'scalloped' briefly up into the wind, using momentum acquired by running off, and the sail hoisted in rushes.

If the rig is big enough to need an electric halyard winch, this may not be feasible to do manually (particularly short handed) because the sail will not go up quickly enough to make appreciable inroads during each rush.

And the lazyjacks will catch with every scallop, but if you ease them forward, the whole mess gets plastered against the rig, etc etc.
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Old 18-03-2014, 04:55   #1236
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeannius View Post
You can if you have one of these... Startwell Mechanical Starters - Diesel Engine starting - spring starter - back up starter- startwell - simms - manual starter - alternative to electric hydraulic and pneaumatic I don't have personal experience but one of these starters was on the list of ' that's a great idea, must get one' that I never got around to getting. Just like the backup autopilot!

I've used these , but not on a marine engine. Very expensive and realistically you need a dual starter bell housing which is not commonly available

It's not really a solution

Dave
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Old 18-03-2014, 04:59   #1237
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post

Before you know it your engine will have an IP address and be pinging satellites behind your back.

That's a great idea, sailboats will never get lost again .... Oh wait ,,, hmmmm

Dave x
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Old 18-03-2014, 05:07   #1238
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Crab View Post
I misread that as get an aluminum hat.

My bad.
HA!!!
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Quote:
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What it might be good to do is to have less of the "who was right and who was wrong" posts. The deed is now done, if not dusted, and the only person who can truly give a verdict on that is Boaty. It was a great adventure for us to watch and read, and make conjectures about, so we can enjoy that and wait for the feelings of the man in the centre of it all.
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Agreed and seconded, Coops.
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RE boaty's 1st post...
Quote:
Originally Posted by atoll View Post
thank god for that!

just one last thing..... can you move your boat 30 ft backwards......and smile
Glad you're in Phil... Never worried... Always concerned...
How are Phillipino smokes???
Now move the damn boat....

Quote:
Originally Posted by s/v Jedi View Post
sécurité

there, I fixed the thread

Sécurité - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Where I'm from Securite has been ... and always will be... A "NAVIGATIONAL WARNING MESSAGE".... Ours are "big nasty grey ship performing live weapons war exercises at XXX ... Stay clear 1000 yards" I take note of position and keep clear... albeit several miles more than 1000 yards!

The flavor of Phil's Securite (in the way that I read it) is that "I'm a vessel of restricted navigation and maneuvering, and I am unlit at night... Please keep an eye out and keep clear"....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Troup View Post
All "common rail" diesels (eg the larger Volvos, ie D3 & D4) require electricity for the fuel injection, and most require it for the engine management systems, electronic shift and throttle, etc.
Give me an old fashioned bang box for sure... This worries me on one boat with complex electrical systems... ie. throttle by wire... no cables etc... No electrics means lots of Gilligan/MacGyver lines tied to the systems to run simple stuff...

Again... Glad you're in bud...
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Old 18-03-2014, 05:08   #1239
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Dead battery bank: we recently (2 weeks ago) dealt with this on a charter cat in Thailand. The charter company was absolutely no help, but fortunately a cruiser anchored near us had a tiny portable (1000 watt) Honda generator. Besides the normal AC output, there was a 12v DC output for charging batteries.

Hand start the tiny generator, run 15 minutes, start 50 hp Volvo diesel.

It impressed me enough I'm gonna buy one for our boat. I'm not saying a delivery skipper like Boatman should be expected to have one. It just seems like a great way to boot yourself out of the dreaded All Dead Battery situation.

Plus it can be used for other misc AC needs, and it's incredibly quiet.
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Old 18-03-2014, 05:15   #1240
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

Quote:
Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post
Praise that container ship.

Still can't figure why you couldn't raise the main phil

Ps awesome job on the weather routing without onboard data. We were all convinced you had a friggin bank of weather data on board.

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With apologies to Coops & Jim C.

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Old 18-03-2014, 05:33   #1241
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

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Originally Posted by goboatingnow View Post

Ps awesome job on the weather routing without onboard data. We were all convinced you had a friggin bank of weather data on board.

Dave

Ditto.

You seemed to dodge weather systems like a welterweight in the ring.
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Old 18-03-2014, 05:44   #1242
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

There is a beautiful view of the Horta Bay on the web camera this morning and you can see the weather seems to be a changing. Could not spot Boaty on the deck or dock. He must be having his morning coffee and toast.... still waiting for more Boaty reports like most everyone else..... Top of the morning to ya Boaty.
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Old 18-03-2014, 06:14   #1243
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pirate Re: Atlantic Delivery

Okay... don't want to piss on any ones parade here.. and I do appreciate Atoll's concerns and actions.. given the lack of hard info as to my situation...
The ship was aware there was no danger to the boat or myself and crew and I was able to make way unassisted.. the aim was to alert vessels as to the fact an unlit boat was in the area and.. should any small vessel in the area be able to provide a jump start.. conditions permitting.. it would be appreciated..
The only concern was water which the 'Praia' resolved for me..
However my plan was to sail for the SW corner of Horta on the SE'ly and when 5 miles off shore lay over on the opposite tack with backed headsail and go to bed.. then start into port in the morning from the S on the better tack and more favourable wind direction.. all JP did was get me in 12hrs or so earlier than I would have.. Horta is a port I've had to enter without an engine a couple of times in the past and its an easy entry.
However I'm now starting to get pissed off with the guy constantly in my face for more work... when a guy who did a tow I did not need or ask for knocks on my hull and says he feels I owe him something it f*^king annoys me big time..
The facts are I was making 4.5 knots when he showed.. the 1st thing he did was to ding my starboard hull... something a damn great container ship failed to do on the 15th.. he's screwing the owner for near 50% of what I'm getting for the delivery for a daysail and he feels I owe him something.. the guy needs to crawl back out of his frickin ass..
As for help.. I know Horta well and got a big grin and.. 'Hey.. your back..' when I wandered into Mid-Atlantic and Peters yesterday.. I speak the language and even have friends who live here.. I am not a 'once in a lifetime' passer through..
The Spot has 2 message systems that have chosen numbers for emergencies etc.. one is a kind of Pan Pan.. in trouble but nothing serious.. and the other a full blown Mayday which kicks the Services into action..
The owners number was one and a good friends number was my other chosen contact so all I needed to do was hit a button if in trouble... which I was not.. inconvenienced yes... trouble no.. once I got the water..
As things now stand I cannot sail as I now have to be inspected by the Port Authorities as to being seaworthy before I can leave because I was towed in.. a real pain in the butt as this interferes with any jury rig to finish the job plans I had... as likely what I consider good enough is not gonna fly with 98% of folk out there and especially with a Port Captain with relatives who could do with some work..
Ahh well.. see how things go over the next couple of days.. but rest assured JP gets nothing more from me.. he shot his bolt this morning..
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Old 18-03-2014, 06:28   #1244
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

So why accept the tow?
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Old 18-03-2014, 06:28   #1245
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Re: Atlantic Delivery

just going to cover my arse here before it get roasted here is the email i sent to jp the night BEFORE he left

Alex , the owner wants me to go so I go , I took 450 l of feul involved 2
crews and have food for a week and as you now the weather can change very
quiqly here in the nord atlantic .

cheers JP
----- Original Message -----
From: "sonia" <dra@yahoo.co.uk>
To: "jean pierre" <jeanpierre-repair@sapo.pt>
Sent: Sunday, March 16, 2014 1:32 AM
Subject: catamaran "bonne etoille" arriving in horta.


hi jp
sent you a text last night after getting the latest position of bonne
etoille.
given the distance i think it is better that we wait another 36 hours before
you leave,ie monday morning.

the weather is still good with southerlies and he is making slow but steady
progeress towards horta,and in no danger.

plus at 60 miles,by the time you get there you will only have a few hours of
light to find him,and no new fix till after dark.

by monday he should be 20 miles or so away and a lot easier to find as he
should be aiming for horta channel,and will be apperciative of a tow in if
his engines are disabled as reported.
he might also be in range so he can use his cell phone,making assistance
much easier.


sorry to mess you around,but patience at the moment is probably the best
action.

not sure what the owners instructions were to you,as i haven't been able to
contact him this late tonght,but would not like him to get a substantial
bill unnessacarily for a 140 mile round trip,where as 40 miles is
justifiable,and errs on the side of caution.

cheers good job getting the sat phone it will make locating him much easier.



regards alex
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