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Old 21-11-2016, 03:58   #106
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

It was interesting to read about Leopard's first Newport->Bermuda sail as told by the designer, Chris White:

https://chriswhitedesigns.com/leopar...ort-to-bermuda

It was especially interesting, in light of the apparent capsize of this boat, that Mr. White awoke in the night and "sensed" they needed to reef the main at 2AM.

Apologies if this link has already been posted.
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Old 21-11-2016, 04:05   #107
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

@belize

Agreed.
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Old 21-11-2016, 04:14   #108
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Ahhhh. That's better.
Cheers Belize.
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Old 21-11-2016, 04:14   #109
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Quote:
Originally Posted by belizesailor View Post
Yes, to all the Qs above.

Fortunately, unsettled weather is usually of shorter duration, but yes...constant attentiveness is required on performance multis (cat or tri).

This is certainly a consideration for a cruising couple on a performance multi. Taking on experienced crew for longer runs would be prudent.
....
Yes, I agree with you. A performance cat to go fast requires constant attention by an experienced crew otherwise it may experience problems with huge gusts or other unusual but real wind conditions. That is hardly possible with a couple sailing on passage.

That is also true that those unusual conditions, with the change on the climate, have been increasing and are more frequent on coastal or near coast conditions that truly offshore, on the middle of an ocean.

That does not mean that one cannot sail a performance cat fast, solo or with the wife and get away with it. He can never encounter those conditions, but the risk is considerably increased.

Not all Atlantic 57 capsized, only about 20% of them and we don't know if the others were sailed fast with short crews frequently. If an Atlantic 55 is always sailed conservatively I am quite sure it is a very safe boat, but that kind of denies the performance character of the boat. Performance sailors don't like to sail conservatively.

I believe that is why on Transats not done with racing crews, like the ARC, you will see condo cats having a very similar performance regarding performance cats. Condo cats can be sailed safely less conservatively due to a smaller capsize risk and that kind of balances things in what regards sailing on the trade winds with a cruising crew.
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Old 21-11-2016, 04:20   #110
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by Polux View Post
There was problems with capsizes on the vendee globe till they modified the boats (more than a decade ago) to be able to return themselves form a capsized position without outside help, not even the help of waves.

Now they will only stay capsized if they will lose the keel (or the ballast) and that had already happened due to violent shocks at speed with objects (whales?).

It is also true that most of the boats that lost the keel and ballast where able to made it home sailing, even without the keel and one of them, that lost the keel on the Southern waters of Brazil keep racing without a keel and even so arrived between the first (great sailing).
that is definitely improvement, however, assuming boat turtle, how one keeps breathing for several minutes or more until boat back ?
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Old 21-11-2016, 04:39   #111
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Cats that are sailing fast have a low figure of apparent wind and if they slow down quickly like Running into the back of a wave and stalling boat speed greatly the apparent wind rises very quick and can trip them over. Happen in Pittwater near Palm island some 15 years ago, a 40footer the name escapes at the moment.
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Old 21-11-2016, 04:48   #112
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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that is definitely improvement, however, assuming boat turtle, how one keeps breathing for several minutes or more until boat back ?
View the video again and you will see.
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Old 21-11-2016, 05:40   #113
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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that is definitely improvement, however, assuming boat turtle, how one keeps breathing for several minutes or more until boat back ?
There is not any known case of a capsize on the last decade with the boats on intact condition and those boats are pushed hard by a solo sailor (that has to sleep) on the worst seas of the planet, not only on circumnavigation races but on many transats, but that is a good question.

I would say that in survival mode they will be inside the boat with the hatch closed, so there is no problem. If they are outside, on those extreme conditions, they will be probably with an harness and probably sheltered on the cockpit. All that they have to do is to to unclip, swim or move around the boat and enter by that back hatch that can be opened from the outside. They have to prove they are able to do that and you can see that on the movie.

Off course on an ocean in the middle of big waves it will be more difficult but previous cases (without all these safety measures on the boats) show that they were able to go inside and come outside of IMOCAs on those conditions.

Always a risk involved, just a much smaller one. They are always trying to improve those boats diminishing risks and they have done that with a very curious mixture of top solo sailors and Top Naval Architects working together on safety measures.
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Old 21-11-2016, 05:48   #114
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Three Man were luckily rescued from a capsized Leopard 57, by the Bulkcarrier "Aloe" offshore the Dominican Republic. The Rescue was assisted by an Hercules Airplane. Found the News this Morning on an German sailing website. The Leopard left Chesapeake on 12th of November and was bound for St.Martin Bluemotion
That confirms my opinion: At anchorage, I'd rather live in a cat but in heavy weather, I'll trade any 57' cat for my well built 34' Ericson... Cats are fare more stable upside down than right side up
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Old 21-11-2016, 09:32   #115
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by ALAIN97133 View Post
That confirms my opinion: At anchorage, I'd rather live in a cat but in heavy weather, I'll trade any 57' cat for my well built 34' Ericson... Cats are fare more stable upside down than right side up
I'll take that trade. You go buy any 57' catamaran, which will cost well over $400,000, and I'll buy a 34' Ericson for around $20,000. We will meet offshore in some heavy weather and trade straight up. Then you can strap your two Ericsons together and continue living in an anchorage like a catamaran.
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Old 21-11-2016, 10:25   #116
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by arsenelupiga View Post
that is definitely improvement, however, assuming boat turtle, how one keeps breathing for several minutes or more until boat back ?
I think the risk of running out of air in an inverted boat is pretty low for both a cat or a mono. In 1997 before they made the Vendee Globe boats self-rescuing, Tony Bullimore spent over 4 DAYS inside his inverted boat.
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Old 21-11-2016, 10:55   #117
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Not sure if this is permissible mods?

From another forum (not as nice as this one) we have our first "first hand" information.

Quote" After a conversation with the crew of Leopard I am convinced the inversion was caused by a microburst or extreme squall. There was no acceleration just before the boat flipped and it inverted almost instantly. They had eased the sails and decided to forego a sail increase until after dinner. The crew described a "roar" and we're immediately inverted. If it can happen to these guys, it can happen to anyone. They don't get more experienced or cautious than this crew. " Unquote


So it appears as though the boys were a little busy inside the cabin with din dins to sail the boat safely.

They had warning, a roar, (over the sound of the Hi Fi?) but possibly weren't anywhere near the sheets, and possibly not outside to feel the first subtle signs of an approaching microburst in their nostrils and on their skin.

I'm going to call this one early. Sounds awfully like the previous 3 Chris White capsizes.

That inside steering wheelhouse arrangement is DANGEROUS.

Now wheres my fire retardant suit.
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Old 21-11-2016, 11:13   #118
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

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Originally Posted by ALAIN97133 View Post
That confirms my opinion: At anchorage, I'd rather live in a cat but in heavy weather, I'll trade any 57' cat for my well built 34' Ericson... Cats are fare more stable upside down than right side up
If you are talking about a cat the same size of your boat than you are right but a big cat has a huge stability and in what regards the energy needed to capsize it it is much, much bigger than the one needed to capsize your boat...and when a boat capsize all sort of things can happen, even if he comes right side up again, as it is to be expected, but many times it comes without a mast.

The cat you posted is on bare poles and should not have a problem. The problem on cats are huge gusts or unusual very strong sudden wind on the sails. On that case if the mast does not break a cat can capsize suddenly and it seems that was what happened to this one.

One thing that many don't understand is that giving the same beam between two cats the stability is directly proportional to the boat weight (assuming the same CG). Therefore a very light cat, that many times have more sail then a similar sized heavy one, with two times the weight, has half the stability of the heavy one. Half the stability and the same sail, or more sail, well that is a boat to be handle very carefully.

On a monohull a fast performance boat can have the same stability or more than an heavier boat due to a better B/D ratio and a deeper keel with a torpedo keel. that does not happen on a cat unless the performance one is much more beamier and that is not normally the case.
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Old 21-11-2016, 11:35   #119
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Quote:
Originally Posted by ALAIN97133 View Post
That confirms my opinion: At anchorage, I'd rather live in a cat but in heavy weather, I'll trade any 57' cat for my well built 34' Ericson... Cats are fare more stable upside down than right side up
So apart from not adding a lot to the discussion, can you tell us at least the story behind the pic, and the outcome please.
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Old 21-11-2016, 12:07   #120
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Re: Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

Geez, now people can't even eat a civilized dinner!

Back to multihulls, having just replaced a cat rig. Many spar builders and cat designers massively over spec rigs. As if the worst thing would be to lose a rig.

Seems to me in a wind only event, I'd much rather drop a rig than flip the boat. I suppose inertia is already got things going in a super quick burst before metal fails?

IE if 64 knots will capsize a boat with a single reef, why not size the rig to only handle 55 knots with that sail?

Seems sorta low to me 64 knots. I have sailed in 50 knots apparent on my cat with a full main and only lifted the windward hull about 12"
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