Atlantic 57 Catamaran Capsized

[yeloya]

Originally Posted by smj

My guess is a 40' cat will have about the same space and performance as a 55' mono, and maybe cost the same? But in my part of the world I would be paying for an extra 15' in both dockage and haul out fees, so the mono would end up being more expensive.

That's exactly the point..

When max beam per overall length is conisdered monohulls are penalised. Even worse, because of the shape of the monos (elliptical) they pay for the area that they can never use whereas cats (close to rectangular) can use all the space they pay for.
The disadvantage of the cats starts with haul out fees, particularly for large cats. There are relatively fever marinas that can handle cats over 50 ft and usually charge higher fees..

Cheers

Yeloya

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by beiland

Perhaps this 'gamefishing under sail' cat could solve a few problems simultaneously,...significantly reduced height of the rig for the same sail area,....and able to quickly get rid of sail to land that fish.....


Gamefishing Design - a 65' mast-aft sailing catamaran

Those backstays look like they'd get in the way fighting a big fish.

[beiland]

Perhaps place the fishing chair a bit further aft like I did here,...



or on 'fishing deck' across the stern...


or out at the corners like Tara Vana




Come to think of it, how often does that fish get up at 90 degrees to your boats orientation if you have a really maneuverable vessel? Don't the fishing captains like to keep the fish off the sterns, not along side? And aren't the cats with their widely spaced props pretty maneuverable?

I've not been a gamefisherman in the ordinary sense of things, but I have trolled for fish when making a passage offshore. The biggest problem i encountered was slowing the boat down when I hooked up (and of course getting rid of sail right away). My single furling staysail (trolling sail) could offer this. And my mizzen boom was stored up out of the way.

[ALAIN97133]

Originally Posted by Polux

A common misconception about beamy boats. In fact those race boats you talk about had, by race rules, to prove they can re-right themselves in flat water.

Et avec la mât et les voiles ????

[BigBeakie]

Brian,

You absolutely need to keep the stern quarters clear. A marlin can parallel the boat so fast it's amazing. And no, fighting a billfish directly behind the boat is a good way to pull the hook. Fighting it off the quarters keeps line pressure angled behind the fish from the bow in the line.


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[BigBeakie]

Thread drift alert!!!😈


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[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Thread drift alert!!!😈


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Dramatic drift...capsized performance cat...to guns...to fishing...wow! Something new every day! 😆

[admiralslater]

I freind of mine who lives in Bequia , built and ran a 60 foot day cat . He is Florida boy a loves finishing . He had 2 fighting chairs installed an ran 4 lines . A lot of fish got caught tuna ,dolphin (not flipper ) king mackerel even a 300 blue marlin . Most of the time he caught under sail . Speed was kept up most of the time after hook up .
He kept wasabi on board and it got well used . The guests loved it .
The boat even placed 3rd in a tourney in Barbados

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by cyan

Whaaat? Now I know.

I was recently on a Catana spending a bunch of time on beam reach with only the windward board down. (is this bad?) We weren't trying to go up wind- just fast. Tons of fun, but the whole craft shuddered in a spooky way every time we hit puffs.
Was the relatively new captain taking a greater risk than he thought?

BTW, nice video!

RE: windward board down if only one - YES. Especially in heavier seas, though you would raise it at least 50%. The windward board helps to reduce side surfs, while the leeward board can trip the boat. In the conditions you describe you could probably have raised it completely.

Generally you only should run full and both boards in full sail conditions close hauled upwind, and even then only to whatever your boat manual says. After that, raise both boards to 50-75% area. By the time you put the first reef in the leeward board should be raised completely.

On close, beam or broad reaches no boards are necessary (your hulls and rudders provide all the side force required). When reaching in big waves we’ll run 20% windward board to balance the rudders and provide a bit more course stability for the autopilot.

DDW, no boards ever needed.

Note that sometimes in lighter winds if you want to go faster raise both boards, increase your apparent by heading up, then sail fast and allow your greater leeway skid you down to your desired heading. This works for any course other than close hauled.

RE: shuddering on puffs could indicate the boat struggling to accelerate with the puffs (Catanas have a lot of rise in their aft quarters, so don’t accelerate easily past hull speed). Definitely over powered - the skipper should check the reefing guide for the boat.

But if you trust the condition of the standing rigging and if you don’t mind aging it faster, and if you have a sharp crew, it’s fun to push past the reefing guide. Knowingly!

[admiralslater]

The idea that you can hold a course above a broad reach without boards is in my opinion preposterous. I have raced dagger board cats for since the early 80s ,and am very familiar with what happens with different board configurations . I understand that the discussion is cruising oriented but the principals are the same .
Dagger board cats need the board s to be used that is why they are there,the hull shapes are often different to take advantage the lift that a board produces .
On my PDQ36 the hulls are exceptionally slippery and if I raised the board on a close reach as suggested I would have leeway in excess of 10 degrees which is unacceptable when planning a passage . In a earlier post some suggested pulling the boards at night while going up wind . You actually night maintain a better position if you just took all the sails down and drifted.
There is no right answer for which and how boards should be used for instance our pdq is designed to use one board (leeward) infact we tack the boards when we are racing . We carry full board to weather even after the first reef if the sea stat allows . On reaches the amount of board varies based on the conditions ,at about 120 degrees I will raise them fully but not always
On our Outremer I not been able to get the info yet on if I am to run two full boards yet .
The boat is relatively new to us so I am being circumspect in the use of the boards and do use the weather board more when going up wind ,this is only for sea state again
A great deal of my racing on cats was on the same course as monhulls and we raced them head to head , leeway was always something we could compare both on and off the wind ,this is where I formed my opinions on board use .
Sorry for the drift

[belizesailor]

Wow, talk about thread leeway! Capsize, guns, fishing, and now boards...this has to be some kind of record! 😆

[admiralslater]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Wow, talk about thread leeway! Capsize, guns, fishing, and now boards...this has to be some kind of record! 😆

I was just thinking that

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by admiralslater

The idea that you can hold a course above a broad reach without boards is in my opinion preposterous. I have raced dagger board cats for since the early 80s ,and am very familiar with what happens with different board configurations . I understand that the discussion is cruising oriented but the principals are the same .
Dagger board cats need the board s to be used that is why they are there,the hull shapes are often different to take advantage the lift that a board produces .
On my PDQ36 the hulls are exceptionally slippery and if I raised the board on a close reach as suggested I would have leeway in excess of 10 degrees which is unacceptable when planning a passage . In a earlier post some suggested pulling the boards at night while going up wind . You actually night maintain a better position if you just took all the sails down and drifted.
There is no right answer for which and how boards should be used for instance our pdq is designed to use one board (leeward) infact we tack the boards when we are racing . We carry full board to weather even after the first reef if the sea stat allows . On reaches the amount of board varies based on the conditions ,at about 120 degrees I will raise them fully but not always
On our Outremer I not been able to get the info yet on if I am to run two full boards yet .
The boat is relatively new to us so I am being circumspect in the use of the boards and do use the weather board more when going up wind ,this is only for sea state again
A great deal of my racing on cats was on the same course as monhulls and we raced them head to head , leeway was always something we could compare both on and off the wind ,this is where I formed my opinions on board use .
Sorry for the drift

Is your boat a Danson generation 45? If so, the rules are likely the same as for our 55. The owner’s manual, that I translated into English very painstakingly and with help from Grand Large Services, clearly states that full boards, which on our boat are 60 cm below deck level, should only be used below 15 knots AWS. Above that, bring the windward up to deck level (75% deployed) and get rid of the leeward board completely as it doesn’t add any more reduction in leeway. By mid-first reef the manual recommends 50% board. The Outremer hulls don’t have a lot of rocker, plus you have the skegs. I’m not too sure about the 45 hull shape, YMMV, but for the 50/55 no boards are OK for anything other than upwind.

Regarding skidding the boat by raising the boards, this is about pointing higher (reaching or downwind, NOT beating) in lighter winds for higher apparent wind and allowing the extra leeway keep you on your intended heading. I certainly didn’t mean that you can’t keep your course due to skidding. But on our 55 we can beam reach (TWA) with no boards and maintain our heading with almost no leeway, as long as we’re going fast.

Below 8 knots boat speed without boards our leeway increases quickly and we skid. If the resulting COG is good, then we’re going faster than if we pointed straight at our COG with boards down to limit leeway. In lighter air only.

Unlike your PDQ, the Outremer definitely prefers the windward board alone in heavier air.

[fxykty]

Drifting is as drifting does. Unless the mods think there’s value in creating a new thread.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Drifting is as drifting does. Unless the mods think there’s value in creating a new thread.

Frankly, I think the daggerboards have eased the drift considerably. [SIC]

This thread started with questions surrounding the capsize of a performance cat, Such a cat had daggerboards, of course.

I have learned much here from members fxykty and admiralslater on the subject. Thank you both!

For instance...
I was quite surprised to hear that the PDQ likes to have just a leeward board in some conditions. This contradicts my intuition, as the tripping concern would have me spooked. I'm missing something. Now I want to learn more...