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Old 19-06-2014, 10:29   #31
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
When last year we suddenly fell into a boat deal we ended up with two. Now the First is for sale. Our friend and broker of 20 years called us his worst client because we only bought one boat in all those years. We had no idea what the First was worth but he said we should get 50k Euro & listed her for 55. Our research showed that was at the higher end of those available but was obviously the best by far. After six months (during the winter) we dropped the price to 47,500 euro. That is almost the middle of the pricing on yacht world. To date there has not been a single inquiry. Nothing. Nada. Our friend/broker says he is "gob smacked" she hasn't been snatched up. He says the market is dead. No one is buying, or even kicking tires (so to speak). The Germans are not shopping, & the Spanish are broke. The only movement he is seeing is with the French. We would be happy to entertain an offer. Hell, we'd be happy if someone showed some interest!

So pricing is likely a factor, but I believe there is something odd going on with the economy too. Why is no one even shopping (apart from Weavis that is)?
firstly, I dont believe the news. The recession is not over. Europe is getting spanked along with the USA and the citizens ar being ridden by the financial Institutions via the goverments. I recently helped rent (one year lease on each) 2 properties on the East coast of Spain for colleagues who are working out there, at unbelieable rents. The rents are for a 2 bed two bath apt and a 3 bed two bath house, 198EUR PM and 360EUR PM respectively. Now in the UK, its hard to find a decent apartment for the combined price. 3 years ago, the 3 bed was fetching 1000 PM.

Where you currently are Praire Chicken in Mallorca, It is NOT representative of the reality of Spain. Tourists are buoying up the economy and the house prices on the Island are staying extremely high as they live in this bubble. Russians are dumping money into the Island just to park large sums of cash, as its needs a home. This brings its own issues.
Britain is being squeezed and I think finally it is hitting home that believing that your home represents your financial gain in life is not working.

If things are not moving, there is always a reason. Usually no cash or anxiety about the future. In any event, the recycling of 'extras' slws or stops in the main.
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Old 19-06-2014, 10:43   #32
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Re: Asking too Much?

Its common when looking to buy that many owners think a boats worth is either related to what they spent, a guaranteed profit or a god given right.

A boat is only worth what someone will pay for it. Period.

Offer what you think is right for you. Emotions often cloud common sense.

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Old 19-06-2014, 11:04   #33
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Re: Asking too Much?

Right now, there are a lot of frustrated people out there holding on to real estate, boats, or other large assets. Sometimes they don't want to sell because they paid more for it than it's worth now, and sometimes it's simply because everything was worth more a few years ago, and so their "gut" tells them they should be getting more.

The fact is, markets rise and fall. Like with any market, it pays to time your purchases if you can, but sometimes you need to move forward even if it doesn't time perfectly with the economy. With boats and houses in particular, they can devalue if not maintained, and there are high carrying costs.

I agree with Robert Sailor. You have to know the market. Not just asking prices from Yacht World, but what boats are actually selling for.

Housing markets are easier, because actual sales prices are a matter of public record. Boats are a bit more difficult to value.
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Old 19-06-2014, 11:11   #34
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Re: Asking too Much?

LOL What is wrong with people. He still has the boat and is getting sicker and sicker and the boat is not getting any easier to sell with the lack of maintenance.

Im not looking to steal from someone,

I wonder. From the above it sounds like its a distress sale. He keeps getting sicker etc. Reads like someone trying to steal a good deal. And Im not against that. That's life. But to get all indignant about his distress is a bit over the top. As you say ,"Whats wrong with people,LOL. ?" Boats are very subjective to the owner. If he's as you say, "sick", wait for him to die. Then you can swoop in and really make a killing.
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Old 19-06-2014, 11:14   #35
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Re: Asking too Much?

Avb3, have I got a boat for you! And she even has a Canadian C of R with Edmonton as her port of registry!

Apart from that, bring on the Russians.
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Old 19-06-2014, 11:42   #36
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Im not looking to steal from someone, but there has to come a time for people to wake up and realise that the prices they are asking are unrealistic. If it was just one or two vessels sticking, then I would accept it was me, but 10?
I guess it's probably worth pointing out that if you've waited 11 months and none have sold, it's an indication that both the buyers and sellers are failing to come to terms, not just the sellers. You're BOTH playing the waiting game.

You should also expect to pay a bit higher for the best, and a bit lower for the worst of the bunch.

On the second reading of your post, I do see an indication of why the guy might have been a bit frustrated. It sounds like he was going to attempt to come to terms, but found the request for a new motor and new sails a bit much. People tend to get angry if they sense that someone is not dealing with them fairly. It's a perception thing. Could it be that you pushed a little too hard? What is the basis of your price evaluation? Do you have actual recent sales data for the boat you're looking at?
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Old 19-06-2014, 11:49   #37
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Originally Posted by weavis View Post
SNIP

Im not looking to steal from someone, but there has to come a time for people to wake up and realise that the prices they are asking are unrealistic.

SNIP
Why do you think people have to be realistic. Buying a boat is one of the most unrealistic things most people do.
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Old 19-06-2014, 11:58   #38
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Re: Asking too Much?

I've sold three big ticket items in the last few years.
1. House, sold before I could even list it, small town, word of mouth.
2. airplane, sold in less than 30 days, never officially listed, word of mouth
3. boat, this one took a couple of months, only item I had a broker sell

Reason all sold so quickly and at my asking price is they were well known, well maintained and most importantly asking price was very realistic based on market analysis.
It's been my experience that if something doesn't sell quickly, it's not going to sell.
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Old 19-06-2014, 12:00   #39
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Originally Posted by Prairie Chicken View Post
Avb3, have I got a boat for you! And she even has a Canadian C of R with Edmonton as her port of registry!

Apart from that, bring on the Russians.
LOL.... mine is on the hard for hurricane season and a bottom job. Not sure if I need a second one right now.

However...... if the price is right....
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Old 19-06-2014, 13:05   #40
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Re: Asking too Much?

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I guess it's probably worth pointing out that if you've waited 11 months and none have sold, it's an indication that both the buyers and sellers are failing to come to terms, not just the sellers. You're BOTH playing the waiting game.

You should also expect to pay a bit higher for the best, and a bit lower for the worst of the bunch.

On the second reading of your post, I do see an indication of why the guy might have been a bit frustrated. It sounds like he was going to attempt to come to terms, but found the request for a new motor and new sails a bit much. People tend to get angry if they sense that someone is not dealing with them fairly. It's a perception thing. Could it be that you pushed a little too hard? What is the basis of your price evaluation? Do you have actual recent sales data for the boat you're looking at?
heres the scenario.
Catalac 900/9 go for between low end 20K Sterling and unrealistically 50K top end.
He asked 43K.
The condition of the vessel was about 27K. However it had some things on it I liked. It was worth more to have them and the nice way it was done.
One Engine was goosed and sail was blown out. I could handle the rest. I offered him 30K or him put a new engine in and a new sail and we would talk around 35K. Thats what it would cost me.
I did not know he was sick at the time. I was not pushing him, I had an evaluation given me by a broker, along with sight of 2 year previously completed survey.

I dont consider it a "steal" even at 30K Sterling. I havent seen ONE Catalac 9 sell past 30K sterling in a long time. (In Europe, they dont publish the sale prices and you often see "sale withdrawn". They are not getting the price they think its worth).The ones I have viewed at 27K are not worth it to me in their condition. Well used and ready to have lots of money dropped into them after all the fun and life has gone.

There are currently 2 Catalacs on the UK market which are gorgeous. One at 49K ($84K) and one at 27K. The Catalac 8 (not 9) at 27K has been a contender for a while but is outboard and not quite what I want. The Catalac 900 is based in Europe has everything. I mean everything on it. It just is more than I want to give for 20 year old vessel on a 40 plus year old design.

So both vessels have been sat there for 12 months or more and no sale. Im not the only purchaser looking. (or am I?)

I am in no rush to buy. Sailing is not my life, its just part of it. Im not going to sell up and put 500K into a boat. I want to have one for fun and a base to live on in the Med from time to time.

What I do know is that if I raise my sub $100K limit to $160K..... the world of difference opens up. It really does. Cats are expensive compared to monos but reality HAS to sit in there somewhere.

I am so pissed that absolutely gorgeous Monos can be bought at $84K. I wish I could really want one. Only I cant.
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Old 19-06-2014, 13:28   #41
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Re: Asking too Much?

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I love buying from "these" guys - They are characterized by having great stuff that is well maintained. They pay top dollar for stuff and sell their stuff for top dollar. They are rarely out to scam you. If you point out something wrong, they usually didn't know about it or hadn't considered it and they happily fix it.

I am lazy - If you pointed out the engine on a 40 foot boat and suggested I knock 8 grand off, I would rather do that than spend my time energy and emotions on a boat I am selling. We'd both still be happy but you get to take care of it.

I can tell who these guys are and never try to lowball them as I am confident I am getting what I paid for. They wouldn't hide spongy decks, osmosis or any other BS. In fact one guy gave me a list of all the stuff wrong with his boat - LOL...

OTOH - These guys can get out of touch with the market and if the market really reset by -30% I'd have to show him the comparable listings and offer lower. Yes the market may come back but I am buying present value not future value.

I had a guy who worked for me. He had another quirk. When he retired he said, "I gotta figure out what to do with the cars..."

Well this guy had basically every car he ever bought in storage - He bought a new car every 5 years or so. If he could not get "purchase price" he wouldn't sell it. Never traded one in either. He'd say stuff like, "Well I paid $26,000 for it and some guy offered me $13,000. That's crazy!"

Weird guy... Although his cars were in perfect shape - LOL...

Sometimes it pays to hang onto old cars.

My father bought a 1960 190SL and we kept it after he died. My stepdad started off with a 1964 230SL he bought in Sicily for $3100 and sold it in 15 minutes in SD for $10,000. He then started buying and restoring 1950s "A" Cabriolets and selling them to the car show competitors. Along the way he picked up a 300SL roadster for $60K, and sold it 2 yrs later for $90K. He thought he made a fortune.

Now the 300SL Gullwings sell for $1.2M, 300SL roadsters sell for $600K and the 190SLs are starting to top out at $200k - $225K.
I was once offered $45K for the 190SL from a German collector, sight unseen. I declined and he asked what my price was. I told him that due to sentimental value, the price was $1M. He told me I'd never get that much for a car that sold for $5K new.

I honestly never thought I'd see it worth $200k, it seems like prices are going up $10K/month right now. I'm going to wait a bit more, and if it looks like prices are slowing down in the $300k range, I'll sell it and buy my dream catamaran for $200 - $225k.

My original plan was to sell my home for about $600k in 5 yrs (current value $490k) and use that to buy a $200k cat and save the rest for the cruising kitty, but if I can buy a boat with cash and rent my house out, the $2600 - 2800/mo. rent would make a nice monthly income while cruising, while retaining the original asset.
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Old 19-06-2014, 13:39   #42
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Re: Asking too Much?

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heres the scenario...

Sounds like a fairly typical boat market.

There's a broker near me who advertises boats at what seem to be outrageous prices, but somehow they end up sold. I don't know if he comes down a lot on the price or what. They don't publish the prices, though they might be in soldboats.com. I'd love to know what they actually sell for, because he does have some nice boats.
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Old 19-06-2014, 13:48   #43
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Sometimes it pays to hang onto old cars.

My father bought a 1960 190SL and we kept it after he died. My stepdad started off with a 1964 230SL he bought in Sicily for $3100 and sold it in 15 minutes in SD for $10,000. He then started buying and restoring 1950s "A" Cabriolets and selling them to the car show competitors. Along the way he picked up a 300SL roadster for $60K, and sold it 2 yrs later for $90K. He thought he made a fortune.

Now the 300SL Gullwings sell for $1.2M, 300SL roadsters sell for $600K and the 190SLs are starting to top out at $200k - $225K.
I was once offered $45K for the 190SL from a German collector, sight unseen. I declined and he asked what my price was. I told him that due to sentimental value, the price was $1M. He told me I'd never get that much for a car that sold for $5K new.

I honestly never thought I'd see it worth $200k, it seems like prices are going up $10K/month right now. I'm going to wait a bit more, and if it looks like prices are slowing down in the $300k range, I'll sell it and buy my dream catamaran for $200 - $225k.

My original plan was to sell my home for about $600k in 5 yrs (current value $490k) and use that to buy a $200k cat and save the rest for the cruising kitty, but if I can buy a boat with cash and rent my house out, the $2600 - 2800/mo. rent would make a nice monthly income while cruising, while retaining the original asset.
Holding a car long term is not a great idea. The 1964 bought for $3100 and sold for $10000... over 50 yrs, that works out to a 2.37% return on investment. Just about any investment will beat that over a 50yr run. To go out today and buy a car thinking it will be the next multimillion dollar car in 50yrs is crazy.

Also, be careful of crazy high million dollar cars, the values can fluxuate drastically depending on how the market is. That can make short term flipping a risky option.
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Old 19-06-2014, 13:53   #44
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Sometimes it pays to hang onto old cars.
Where's the icon for hijacking a thread?
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Old 19-06-2014, 13:59   #45
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Re: Asking too Much?

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Originally Posted by letsgetsailing3 View Post
Where's the icon for hijacking a thread?
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