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Old 26-09-2009, 15:24   #106
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Originally Posted by CortoMaltese View Post
....very often there is a huge difference in price between very similar boats. Is that maybe caused by the fact that the sellers boat is always the best?
Wide ranges in pricing for the same boat model built in the same year, for sale on the same continent, probably are accounted for by the boat's condition, and time since the last refit. These are boats we're talking about not granite monuments and they need constant maintenance. Some owners take pride in their boats, and others quickly lose interest and the boat sometimes sits for years , sans maintenance.
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Old 26-09-2009, 15:30   #107
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..... I believe the large size vessels still have a lot of price drop to do, who needs a 45ft CAT? I want one, but I could also settle for keeping my money on the bank, rent a beach-front house in the Caribbean, and charter a cat once in a while.
The 40' + catamaran market was exploited for Caribbean chartering not private ownership. There was a huge demand and there were a bunch of boats built to fill the demand. I don't believe the housing charts are relevant to this discussion. While pulling a home equity loan out to buy a boat is helpful, that never drove the catamaran market. Chartering did /does.

How's the Caribbean chartering business these days? That's what will affect cat pricing. The 40' cats built for private owners such as Manta, Broadblue, Wildcat, Jaguar, and PDQ are already out of business.
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Old 26-09-2009, 20:47   #108
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Wide ranges in pricing for the same boat model built in the same year, for sale on the same continent, probably are accounted for by the boat's condition, and time since the last refit. These are boats we're talking about not granite monuments and they need constant maintenance. Some owners take pride in their boats, and others quickly lose interest and the boat sometimes sits for years , sans maintenance.
of course, i understand, but this is why i wonder: are the cheaper ones a real pieces of junk? 100% difference in same boat makes me wonder more about absolute no rules in pricing.
Is it honestly possible that 2 same vintage, same boat realistically cost one double than the other?
In case positive i can only imagine that a cheap boat (generally presented as in good conditions) can only be a fraud and something dangerous to buyers life......but i'm not so sure it's this way.
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Old 27-09-2009, 07:07   #109
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"The 40' + catamaran market was exploited for Caribbean chartering not private ownership"

I would think you can not have one without the other, these boats need to be sold afterwards, if the private party dwindles then who is going to buy a boat to put into charter if the losses after that 5 years is extreme?? If you could sell for $350,000 last year after charter, but this year $275- $250,000 who is going to take that hit. Also as I understand it it is private party that makes the boat purchase originally, and then followed up buy a private party that purchases it out of charter.

Anyway you slice it it is purchased by a "private owner" reguardless of its use.
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Old 27-09-2009, 15:18   #110
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I don't believe the housing charts are relevant to this discussion. While pulling a home equity loan out to buy a boat is helpful, that never drove the catamaran market. Chartering did /does.
I think the housing, and more importantly the economic situation in North America (the world?) is relevant to ALL boat prices - not just catamarans.

North America is a consumer driven economy. The consumer is (financially) dead. Increasing unemployment, Wall Street investment losses (even if some recovered), massive Pension Plan losses, flat or decreasing wages, home appreciation flat, daily consumables still inflating and energy may also go higher, banks are/have cut back on credit, and high interest rates are probably just a year away.

The only reason much of the economy is still floating, on very low volume I might add, is because of government stimulus -- which can NOT go on forever. In fact the longer it goes on, the more taxes "joe average" is going to pay - those taxes will be another nail into the coffin of the consumer. Oh! And a jobless recovery is not a recovery of the economy.

Boat prices have been buoyed (punnny hey?) by the recent excesses. Catamarans are no different. While 40+ foot boats of any type are a relatively small portion of the annual boat sales -- they still constitute a market. 40+ footers are purchased and put into service as either private owners or charters. Either way they are "consumed". As the consumer comes under further pressure and "joe average" begins to default on his mortgage (see video below) he will reduce his consumption to the necessities. This will continue the downward pressure on boat prices.

The reality of the large charter operations such as Moorings is that many (most?) of their fleet are owner purchased vessels. Moorings is obviously overstocked and under booked. Owners of Mooring vessels will not be making as much from their "investment" as they were lead to believe and planned on. Those owners will be required buy out at a larger price than anticipated, or sell-off sooner. The silver lining will be that their boats will have less wear on them than they would otherwise have had.

Much like Real Estate agents, boat brokers will continue to pump the market -- that is their livelihood and their entitlement. It is never good for a salesman to have a customer defer a purchase and make further market assessments - they risk loosing the customer. That is why agents are always telling buyers..."It has never been a better time to buy" of course that is accompanied by "It has never been a better time to sell". The good point is, much like the markets, this downturn will result in the more capable agents rising to the top and remaining in business while those found lacking will fold.

TCoach's initial post requested a catamaran "market situation" reply. The situation is that boats are a luxury item and luxury items are under downward price pressure. This is being seen in reduced charter revenue, reduce hotel bookings, reduce airline flight bookings, reduced revenue at chandlers, reduce revenue at maintenance contractors etc. I could go on ad nauseam (and have) but it is clear that the TREND is down.

Remember - the trend is your friend. And, if you can't find the sheep in the herd -- you are the sheep.

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Old 27-09-2009, 15:51   #111
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Remember - the trend is your friend. And, if you can't find the sheep in the herd -- you are the sheep.
Since you like cliches, here's another one. "Past performance is not an indication of the future."
Just because we're seeing a lot of deflation across the economy, especially in housing, doesn't mean that trend is going to continue. A lot of pretty smart guys at the Federal Reserve are doing their best to try and reverse that trend.

And it seems a bit ridiculous to think that the boat market will parallel the housing market. Sure, the boat market is affected by the broader economic conditions, but used boat prices were not rising by 20% a year from 2003 to 2006 like housing, so why should they fall by the same amount? Banks weren't giving subprime mortgages on boats. I didn't see any programs called "Flip this Boat" on tv.

I think Pblais said it best on the first page of this thread, people who don't have the money to maintain or fix their boat are the ones who will be desperate to drop the price and sell cheap. Those with good boats and the money to maintain them know that this is not the best time to sell, and won't act in desperation.

I can't help but laugh when people try to come up with generalities like 'offer 30% less than the asking price', because some boats are listed with a dream price expecting a 30% lower offer, and some boats are priced right to get peoples attention and sell quickly. The offer should be based on the condition and value of the boat, not the asking price!
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Old 27-09-2009, 16:12   #112
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Originally Posted by Fishspearit View Post
And it seems a bit ridiculous to think that the boat market will parallel the housing market. Sure, the boat market is affected by the broader economic conditions, but used boat prices were not rising by 20% a year from 2003 to 2006 like housing, so why should they fall by the same amount? Banks weren't giving subprime mortgages on boats. I didn't see any programs called "Flip this Boat" on tv.
I reviewed my posts and confirmed that at no point did I state that boat prices would follow house prices. I simply made arguments for supply/demand, consumer confidence, and current economics --- as I see them. I could have used Bear Sterns, tech stocks, gold prices, or tulips to express the case, however, I chose houses since most people can relate to them.

FWIW I don't feel the statment "Past performance is not an indication of the future." is a cliché. It is just a disclaimer that the uninformed think is a cliché.

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Old 27-09-2009, 16:25   #113
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Originally Posted by Fishspearit View Post


And it seems a bit ridiculous to think that the boat market will parallel the housing market. Sure, the boat market is affected by the broader economic conditions, but used boat prices were not rising by 20% a year from 2003 to 2006 like housing, so why should they fall by the same amount? Banks weren't giving subprime mortgages on boats. I didn't see any programs called "Flip this Boat" on tv.
Maybe not in the future, but in the past the boat market has always followed the housing market, always. And the housing market has always been, or followed depending on how one wants to interpret it, the economic health indicator.
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Old 28-09-2009, 01:57   #114
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Originally Posted by Fishspearit View Post

And it seems a bit ridiculous to think that the boat market will parallel the housing market. Sure, the boat market is affected by the broader economic conditions, but used boat prices were not rising by 20% a year from 2003 to 2006 like housing, so why should they fall by the same amount? Banks weren't giving subprime mortgages on boats. I didn't see any programs called "Flip this Boat" on tv.

I think Pblais said it best on the first page of this thread, people who don't have the money to maintain or fix their boat are the ones who will be desperate to drop the price and sell cheap. Those with good boats and the money to maintain them know that this is not the best time to sell, and won't act in desperation.

While you can't point to only the housing market, because there is so much more than that wrong. However, I would think the largest factor would be the housing market. I am a Buyer, doing my search, my house has probably lost $25,000, and on top of that it has not gained the 6% So all totaled I have "lost" around $65,000 in the past 2 years.

For "most" that house represents the majority of their value, their ability to buy a boat. The way I read some of these posts is to say only the stinkin rich buy boats or sell boats.

If the market would have continue or at least not dropped out I would have been in a very good position to purchase the boat I want 42 - 440 Lagoon, that option dropped as Icontinued to spiral downward. However now I see the boats starting to reflect this market change as well. 3 moths ago not a single 440 was for sale under $499,000 now there are 6 with the cheapest at $395,000. How you can't equate that to the market is beyond me..

I have to believe that maybe the market is split between those who just have a pool in the backyard filled with money, and those of us who have been scrimping and saving for YEARS to make this happen. For those of us in the latter category, the ability to sell, at what price has a direct affect on my buying power. IMO
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Old 28-09-2009, 02:52   #115
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This thread is beginning to drift big time. As far as housing prices being directly related to boat sales, there is some truth to that, although it's indirectly related. Rising housing prices during the housing bubble was directly related to boat sales, but only during the housing bubble. What would be more correct, is to say that credit availability is directly related to boat pricing.

Banks inclination to fund boat loans has decreased dramatically over the last couple of years. This has directly impacted boat sales. Since refinancing or selling a home is one of the avenues used to finance a boat purchase, of course it has had some effect. However, the ability to own and maintain a boat is directly related to income and/or return on investments. This has also turned negative in the last couple of years and is also a major factor.

As to Catamaran pricing. There is a supply/demand factor in play. There has been rising interest in Cats. There is a limited supply. This will continue be a governing factor.

I don't believe it's practical to compare pricing on different cats and arrive at conclusions without taking a look at the boats. Armchair research is great, but only to a point. Until boat condition is ascertained, you really have no idea of what you are comparing.
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Old 28-09-2009, 05:04   #116
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While all this discussion is very interesting, i guess that reality, as usual, better describes situation.
I'm in the buyers market after 2 boats: FP athena and Privilege 37.
This is what i noticed: there are dozens of FP, trying to be sold for months (maybe more) but stuck there; the only ones that get in "sale pending" and after a wile disappear are the ones with a nice price (so someone found them fine for the price).
The P37 instead, even considering that it's a very appreciated boat, but maybe a bit more expensive, the few on sale are still there, after many months (maybe more).

So what all this means? I seems to be quite clear: there is much more offer than demand and actually a lot of people that till few years ago would spend a small capital in a boat now they'd rather think twice and then choose....a house?
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Old 28-09-2009, 05:29   #117
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What I think some are not grasping is that a Boat is a consumption item like any other item, and the consumer will always ask himself "should I buy this or that?". To go for a real life example like CortoMeltese, this week I will be in Florida looking at some 40+ Cats, I was also contacted by a Real estate broker that wants to show me some 1 and 2drm condos close to Florida Atlantic University which are selling for USD 35000 t USD 50000, and usually rent to students for USD 600 to USD1200, thats over 1% per month net income. If I find that it checks out I will daunted with the choice of buying a USD 350000+ Cat or 10 condos that will earn me rental income. If the housing price was higher, it will not compete with cats as the investment of choice.
As stated before housing can be an investment (prices can go up, rental income etc), Catamarans are always an expense ONLY, but bring us JOY, and we are paying for that JOY the same way as drinking a fine Scotch or burning a nice Cigar. As money dwindles less cigar is burned and less boats are bought.
Last point, Catamaran prices were going up in the past, not only that used Cats were not pricing in the correct depreciation because you could sell them high due to increase in price of the new ones and the waiting list. Now new cats are already coming to the show with prices "discounted" from last years and there is no waiting list. Therefore the used ones have to drop prices even more.
Only a blind person or a seller does not want to see this. For us buyer the main point is to be patient and not to think that we can "miss the opportunity of a life time", there will be plenty of CATS coming into the market on the next 6 months, and sellers will begin to feel the maintenance bills.
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Old 28-09-2009, 06:07   #118
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in the past the boat market has always followed the housing market, always.
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However, I would think the largest factor would be the housing market.
Then you guys better hurry up and buy!


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I'm in the buyers market after 2 boats:
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this week I will be in Florida looking at some 40+ Cats
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Old 28-09-2009, 06:48   #119
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"The news was not as positive on the national front, where sales of existing homes fell 2.7 percent in August, the first decline in four months."

"Still, prices remain down from a year ago. Last month, the median sale price was $147,400, down 22 percent from $188,500 a year ago."


Patient and watching the market, as soon as I see a different trend than a downward one, I'll buy. (on boats not houses)

Fishspearit, while you seem to be offended, my opinion comes from not only observance but I have a boat in the Market. I paid $43,000, it has 36 hours on it, received orders to Japan, highest offer received before I put it in storage.... $26,000 Late model 08 with 4 year full warranty. The market just sucks. IMO you really have 2 choices you can "give it away or hold it (if you can afford to hold) Mine is out of the water shrink wrapped up, and I will see it in 3-5 years. I do not like the market, as a seller, but I do not deny the market either, I am aware of what I would have to do to sell.

Not looking to start any crap here, but, I think it makes sense to wait a bit if you can, I really do feel for the owners who are needing to sell, but I won't buy till the market shows stability. Really do not want the unusual depreciation passed on to me. I am just not that nice of a guy...
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Old 28-09-2009, 07:39   #120
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"The news was not as positive on the national front, where sales of existing homes fell 2.7 percent in August, the first decline in four months."
Fishspearit, while you seem to be offended,
I'm not offended at all. I'm just more bullish than most it seems. I see a bottom in housing and boats about to turn around as well. There are areas where homes are selling for less than they can be built for, if that's not a bottom than I don't know what is.

Statistics so often point both ways. Like the one you quoted, sales fell 2.7 percent in August from July, but they were still up 3.5% from last August.
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