Asking Price vs Selling Price - Caribbean Cats?

[VERTIGO]

"The 40' + catamaran market was exploited for Caribbean chartering not private ownership"

I would think you can not have one without the other, these boats need to be sold afterwards, if the private party dwindles then who is going to buy a boat to put into charter if the losses after that 5 years is extreme?? If you could sell for $350,000 last year after charter, but this year $275- $250,000 who is going to take that hit. Also as I understand it it is private party that makes the boat purchase originally, and then followed up buy a private party that purchases it out of charter.

Anyway you slice it it is purchased by a "private owner" reguardless of its use.

[Tropic Cat]

This thread is beginning to drift big time. As far as housing prices being directly related to boat sales, there is some truth to that, although it's indirectly related. Rising housing prices during the housing bubble was directly related to boat sales, but only during the housing bubble. What would be more correct, is to say that credit availability is directly related to boat pricing.

Banks inclination to fund boat loans has decreased dramatically over the last couple of years. This has directly impacted boat sales. Since refinancing or selling a home is one of the avenues used to finance a boat purchase, of course it has had some effect. However, the ability to own and maintain a boat is directly related to income and/or return on investments. This has also turned negative in the last couple of years and is also a major factor.

As to Catamaran pricing. There is a supply/demand factor in play. There has been rising interest in Cats. There is a limited supply. This will continue be a governing factor.

I don't believe it's practical to compare pricing on different cats and arrive at conclusions without taking a look at the boats. Armchair research is great, but only to a point. Until boat condition is ascertained, you really have no idea of what you are comparing.

[CortoMaltese]

While all this discussion is very interesting, i guess that reality, as usual, better describes situation.
I'm in the buyers market after 2 boats: FP athena and Privilege 37.
This is what i noticed: there are dozens of FP, trying to be sold for months (maybe more) but stuck there; the only ones that get in "sale pending" and after a wile disappear are the ones with a nice price (so someone found them fine for the price).
The P37 instead, even considering that it's a very appreciated boat, but maybe a bit more expensive, the few on sale are still there, after many months (maybe more).

So what all this means? I seems to be quite clear: there is much more offer than demand and actually a lot of people that till few years ago would spend a small capital in a boat now they'd rather think twice and then choose....a house?

[Augusto]

What I think some are not grasping is that a Boat is a consumption item like any other item, and the consumer will always ask himself "should I buy this or that?". To go for a real life example like CortoMeltese, this week I will be in Florida looking at some 40+ Cats, I was also contacted by a Real estate broker that wants to show me some 1 and 2drm condos close to Florida Atlantic University which are selling for USD 35000 t USD 50000, and usually rent to students for USD 600 to USD1200, thats over 1% per month net income. If I find that it checks out I will daunted with the choice of buying a USD 350000+ Cat or 10 condos that will earn me rental income. If the housing price was higher, it will not compete with cats as the investment of choice.
As stated before housing can be an investment (prices can go up, rental income etc), Catamarans are always an expense ONLY, but bring us JOY, and we are paying for that JOY the same way as drinking a fine Scotch or burning a nice Cigar. As money dwindles less cigar is burned and less boats are bought.
Last point, Catamaran prices were going up in the past, not only that used Cats were not pricing in the correct depreciation because you could sell them high due to increase in price of the new ones and the waiting list. Now new cats are already coming to the show with prices "discounted" from last years and there is no waiting list. Therefore the used ones have to drop prices even more.
Only a blind person or a seller does not want to see this. For us buyer the main point is to be patient and not to think that we can "miss the opportunity of a life time", there will be plenty of CATS coming into the market on the next 6 months, and sellers will begin to feel the maintenance bills.

[Fishspearit]

in the past the boat market has always followed the housing market, always.

However, I would think the largest factor would be the housing market.

Then you guys better hurry up and buy!

I'm in the buyers market after 2 boats:

this week I will be in Florida looking at some 40+ Cats

[VERTIGO]

"The news was not as positive on the national front, where sales of existing homes fell 2.7 percent in August, the first decline in four months."

"Still, prices remain down from a year ago. Last month, the median sale price was $147,400, down 22 percent from $188,500 a year ago."


Patient and watching the market, as soon as I see a different trend than a downward one, I'll buy. (on boats not houses)

Fishspearit, while you seem to be offended, my opinion comes from not only observance but I have a boat in the Market. I paid $43,000, it has 36 hours on it, received orders to Japan, highest offer received before I put it in storage.... $26,000 Late model 08 with 4 year full warranty. The market just sucks. IMO you really have 2 choices you can "give it away or hold it (if you can afford to hold) Mine is out of the water shrink wrapped up, and I will see it in 3-5 years. I do not like the market, as a seller, but I do not deny the market either, I am aware of what I would have to do to sell.

Not looking to start any crap here, but, I think it makes sense to wait a bit if you can, I really do feel for the owners who are needing to sell, but I won't buy till the market shows stability. Really do not want the unusual depreciation passed on to me. I am just not that nice of a guy...

[Fishspearit]

Originally Posted by VERTIGO

"The news was not as positive on the national front, where sales of existing homes fell 2.7 percent in August, the first decline in four months."
Fishspearit, while you seem to be offended,

I'm not offended at all. I'm just more bullish than most it seems. I see a bottom in housing and boats about to turn around as well. There are areas where homes are selling for less than they can be built for, if that's not a bottom than I don't know what is.

Statistics so often point both ways. Like the one you quoted, sales fell 2.7 percent in August from July, but they were still up 3.5% from last August.

[CortoMaltese]

....to have a complete idea u'd have to say also that only in the month of august banks started 358.471 new foreclosure processes (source:RealityTrack)......just to give an idea about how real estate market is far to be stabilize IMO.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Agree with you on the statistics front. 9 out of 10 are made up. and the other 5 are lies

Originally Posted by Fishspearit

There are areas where homes are selling for less than they can be built for, if that's not a bottom than I don't know what is.

IMO nothing fundamentally wrong with being bullish, but I would mention that just because something costs £100 to make doesn't automatically mean it is worth that. Historically houses (in the West, especially in the Anglo Saxon economies) have tended to be the only s/h item that is expected to increase in value (in real terms). No inherent reason why that should be, it's down to supply and demand. fuelled by speculation (which happens in cycles - this one happens to be the mutha of them all ). Property going up in value is not like the sun rising in the morning, where it may (?? ) not really matter how many goats you sacrifice the night before - simply have to wait 8 hours.

Notwithstanding that, I also expect property in general to revert to the historic norm of increasing in value - at some point in the (distant?) future. but some won't, and will continue to depreciate even further below what they can be built for.

[Fishspearit]

When I'm not idling my time away on cruisersforum, I'm usually reading economic sites. It's funny, most of those guys are always screaming about 'Quanitative easing from the Federal Reserve, expanding money supply, future hyper-inflation, falling dollar, rising oil costs, buy Gold! Inflation is just around the corner!'

But people shopping for boats (fiberglass resin being an oil product) are just as sure that deflation will continue.

[rigamarole]

Can you corrolate boats and cars?

Luxury car market may never look the same - The Driver's Seat- msnbc.com

BTW, In my opinion, the only reason home prices should go up is availability of land. If you live in an area like I do, there is an almost endless supply of rural land available. Metro Chicago, not so much

[Augusto]

One question to Fishspearit, are you selling a boat or out to buy one?

Home sales in the US are recovering, that means that there are more transactions, but since price is still dropping that really means that sellers are coming to grips with new prices and accepting offers, still a pressured market in Price terms.
Cost of building will also come down, remember that with excess labor (unemployment rate up) hourly wages come down, and all housing items (including land prices) are also coming down in price, so new houses will be "cheaper" to build so prices will continue to have downward pressure.

[rigamarole]

Originally Posted by Augusto

Cost of building will also come down, remember that with excess labor (unemployment rate up) hourly wages come down, and all housing items (including land prices) are also coming down in price, so new houses will be "cheaper" to build so prices will continue to have downward pressure.

Ok, complete drift, but I disagree with new home prices going down, at least the hard costs. I'm a heating contractor and in 2005 we put around 1000 heating systems in new homes. At that time we where constantly getting hammered on price due to the "volume discount". This year we will be lucky to do 200 systems. It's more expensive for me to do less volume, that's for sure. While I haven't increased my prices, they sure are not going any lower. And I'm pretty sure this is the same for all trade subcontractors.

[Augusto]

Again, Stocks, houses, gold etc, are potentially profitable investments, due to dividend, holding reserve value etc.
BOATS are an expense item ONLY. If tomorrow the is so much charter business that I can rent out a boat year round then people will begin to buy boats for rental income and prices will rise. This scenario will NEVER happen.
We are using the housing market here to show how bad things are even for a good that could be an investment (a house), but a Boat will never be as good as an investment as a house, stock, gold etc.
For boat prices to even commence going up you need excess savings and increase propensity to spend. I do not think we are there yet.

[David_Old_Jersey]

Originally Posted by Augusto

I do not think we are there yet.

Contender for understatement of the year award?