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Old 14-09-2009, 06:03   #76
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I have about 4 boats to look at the end of this month,Not wanting to waste money for surveys for 4 boats ,i will (owner permitting ) take my pre-survey tool box,with compression guage, multi-meter and inspection mirror,and tape recorder to narrow down my choices. then when i have decided on a piticular one ,call the surveyer.I have done research threw the owners groups of these boats and have contacted their owners and have informally introduced myself and have appointments to view their boats.That eleviates me from going threw a broker and should save me some money at the barganing table..Many in the owners group have told me the average condition of these boats.So i feel i have sort of a heads up on what to expect.......thats the plan i have ,and i feel like it's the educated comsumer that gets the deals...IMHO......Ed
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Old 14-09-2009, 07:26   #77
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Quote:
.......thats the plan i have ,and i feel like it's the educated consumer that gets the deals...IMHO......Ed
The informed buyer that goes looking already having done the home work is always in the best position. You can't make a seller do something and you can't negotiate from a weak position. Knowing is the strong position for a buyer. Knowing the other boat is a better deal is the key. I can walk away from this deal that isn't working and can buy the other boat makes the process very very stress free. You can't stare the owner in the eyes and make them give it away. If you can know which boats are the good ones you'll work harder to close on those boats. It's not hard to agree to a fair price when you really understand the boat you are looking at vs the others you could actually buy.

If you check them all out your instinct should draw you to the better boat based on your homework and preliminary looking. The surveyor is just there to find things you could miss and provide an authenticated survey report you can take to the insurance company. They get paid - deal with it. Brokers are as you find them you don't take them out for a date. If you know the boats then you don't need to ask the owner out on a date either. A solid offer with no conditions other than the survey with the idea the survey is only a go no go deal offered with a desire to close with cash as soon as possible are the words all sellers want to here. It's how I bought and sold the last boats. It's simple and it works. Everything else is just a lot of fooling around and a waste of your time and money.

Owners groups are a great resource I found history on the first boat we bought. I knew problems the past owner and current owner had dealt with as I saw the discussions with other owners. Owners groups offer good reliable information both good and bad about boats they love. Finding the bad stuff is one thing but the good stuff is why you pay the money. After you buy any boat it's worth seeking out the owners groups if you can find them.
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Old 14-09-2009, 09:01   #78
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I think lot of people have the same experience with brokers. (negative)

I wonder why the "classified ads" section in this forum is used relatively little.

Also the ads I have seen are one sentence ads, no photos, no price, no description, info on demand.

Discouraging for the buyers. If they put photo, info, price in Yachtworld, why not make the same here.

Maybe creating separate sections only for the "boats for sale" and "looking for a boat" will help. So that boats will not get lost in the ads for little priced items.
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Old 14-09-2009, 10:02   #79
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Maybe creating separate sections only for the "boats for sale" and "looking for a boat" will help. So that boats will not get lost in the ads for little priced items.
The classifieds we have here are primarily to help members with a sale of something another member might use. A spare what ever or a used something and a few boats find their way here too. We are not out to be a shopping site. We don't want members that only sell something and leave but if you join you can post an ad. We don't allow links to your ebay sale page else we would get them all here.

I found our current boat from a web ad right here on CF. It was listed with a broker and while the seller was a broker at that brokerage he was not the broker we dealt with.

You can find boats a lot of ways and using everything you can. You only want to buy one boat. Start shopping close to home is my best advice - it's cheaper.

People sell boats themselves but most larger boats are sold by brokers. Only 20% of the brokers sell 80% of the boats. Not all brokers are that good or work that hard. Same is true for real estate agents. Both professions have the illusion of great wealth with very little work.
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Old 14-09-2009, 10:18   #80
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When placing an offer, how about considering the NADA guide's value and will it vary depending on the location? Will an offer based on NADA Guide value be off (too low, too high, or pretty close to what it should be). Can you make an offer on 2 boats at the same time to see what the best deal will be?
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Old 14-09-2009, 11:40   #81
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I looked for the NADA listing on the CSY's and could not find it there in their list..........besides, after looking at these boats for 8 months now, i kinda have a scope of there average value....refitted or not. any how i am starting at 30% less than the asking price
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Old 14-09-2009, 11:59   #82
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NADA guides pretty much suck unless it was a small production boat where they mode over 500.

Making an offer is a proposed agreement to enter into contract. The idea is you are sincere in your desire even if not obligated without a contract and survey. In most cases the offer is the proposed contract you sign and you are asking the seller to sign. That makes a legal problem the second time around unless you want two boats.

Wiritng multiple offers would tie up more than one seller. It's why the usual 10% down is required. If you are willing to tie up your money then it means you might be sincere. They worry less that you might be playing games. No one may find out but you can't string out a deal without losing ground with the seller.

The ability to play two deals against each other while it may seem desirable it does make you out as devious and not trustworthy. Those faults perceived by a seller would not stand you well. It could be proven you acted in bad faith and you could forfeit the deposit. It's rare and you could probably fight to get it back but you sure won't buy the boat.

I would look at a group of boats and decide the best one. Consider the alternatives and try in your mind to make them equal given price and extra money invested. Start with the "best" one and work to see if it is a deal or not. Some boats are not really for sale.

Make straight up offers and don't get complicated. Show an honest attitude and have the confidence that you get from doing your homework. Compare only real boats for sale you have seen yourself. Forget about book values and boats you heard about or saw on Yachtworld. Only real deals count since those are the only ones you can buy. I ignored a long distance potential buyer that was going to offer 10% more just after I had a real proposed contract. I could have blown the first offer off, but it was a real offer with a check. Long distance deals are not as real.

If it comes down to it, be honest and say "I can get a better deal some place else and I don't want to waste your time, thank you for the consideration." You then leave and work the other deal.
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Old 14-09-2009, 12:06   #83
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I looked for the NADA listing on the CSY's and could not find it there in their list..........
Having owned a CSY 33 and known a lot of owners of 44's I can tell you there are no guidelines. They run from one end of the scale to the other as far as quality and the refitting required can be nothing to just about everything. An old untouched charter isn't worth much. You need to check them out before making any offer. I wouldn't touch one that didn't already have a serious refit. You could spend $60K easily after the sale. I do like the boat though.
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Old 14-09-2009, 12:13   #84
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Very sensible advice Pblais. This was suggested by someone and it seemed wrong to us as well. Not acting in good faith always fouls up deals and only makes people not trust you. I mentioned it because there are people out there apparently doing it. I didn't think this was customary for boats as it it certainly not the case for real estate so I am glad to see that our instincts were right on. Dealing with sales people is pretty scary sometimes, they will do anything for a buck in their pocket. Word of advice, don't trust what the sales people/brokers tell you. Always double check, research and get second opinions.

Thank God for this forum!!!
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Old 15-09-2009, 08:21   #85
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Talking about brokers, a friend of mine was selling his boat few years ago. He came across a broker.

The broker made a very strange suggestion. He told my friend that he will get a fixed amount "x" Euros and whatever he could put on top of this amount, he (broker) will get it. He also told my friend that he will promote his boat very aggresively. He rejected the offer ofcourse.

When I see some high priced boats get more coverage than the others, on broker's websites, this story comes to my mind.
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Old 15-09-2009, 11:05   #86
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ASB,

That might not be a bad offer from a broker. Boats are to some degree commidities, especially in the day of the internet. Overpriced boats are simply not looked at. Say you owe 90k on a 115k boat you've had a few years. You go to the broker and tell him, I paid 115k for my boat 5 years ago. Since that time 10 other people have bought the boat at that price or slightly below it as it's now older. Sell it for 105k and anything you make above that is yours. He'll look at his information and see if the number makes sense. If he agrees, he's going to really try getting 115k plus for your boat as now the incentive is really on him for getting the highest price and to sell the boat quickly. However, if it's a normal percentage contract, he earns 11K if he sells it for 110 thousand, and 10k if he sells it for 100,000. At 100,000 any fool could sell the boat. For the broker on a percentage commision, it probably makes a lot more sense to simply try to get the boat sold at a slightly less price and do it quickly so he can move on, but it will cost you all of the equity you have in the boat as the final selling price would be 100k minus his 10% commision.

In fact, I think when I sell my next boat that's exactly what I'll do. I'll say to the broker, the boat's fair market value is X (and I am realistic), anything above that is yours. If he sells the boat at an outstanding price, great, he's a fantastic salesman.
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Old 15-09-2009, 19:10   #87
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we seem to not be able to exist with out sales men,,the proverbial middle man. "sure you can sail to Tahiti in this shiny new hunter! " my dad told me one day " son you can never get shafted on a deal if you know what it is your buying" seems like good advise ............read buying an aging sail boat till the pages fell out of the binding....have a really good back ground in things that break, and can fix most of them,most of the time......and if i can do an end run around some one and save 11K...hell that's new rigging and cloth.....or a years worth a beer and rum.. or well you get the idea.......LMAo
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Old 22-09-2009, 03:04   #88
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Update:

Lot of new (used) cats are coming to the market since end of August. Many of them are from Med, as the high season ends, the numbers increase.

Most of the newcomers have lower prices than the old advertisers. Also nearly all of the cats I follow are unsold.

It will be an interesting year.
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Old 22-09-2009, 07:19   #89
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not so interesting for the US buyer. The dollar is tanking. The euro was $1.29 in Feb. Today it is $1.48. That works out to $19,000 per 100,000.
Given that there are very few US boats, I don't know if waiting is a good strategy for US buyers
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Old 22-09-2009, 09:04   #90
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A lower dollar also means that a number of US-owned boats are going into the European Market, and in many cases are selling for much more than the added cost of getting them there. This affects the supply here.
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