Asking Price vs Selling Price - Caribbean Cats?

[rigamarole]

Second that. Thanks for the numbers.

[katja&david]

Here another one in EURO, it is Lagoon 380, 2001:
Jan 2009 offered for 135k€
Mar 2009 down to 125k€
May 2009 sea trial & survey – offer to seller 90k€
Aug 2009 sold for 90k€

[sailorbust]

Originally Posted by katja&david

Here another one in EURO, it is Lagoon 380, 2001:
Jan 2009 offered for 135k€
Mar 2009 down to 125k€
May 2009 sea trial & survey – offer to seller 90k€
Aug 2009 sold for 90k€

Do you have a link to the original listing so we can evaluate this boat?
So someone in May 2009 offered 90K Euros, but the seller didn't take it....and then the seller ended up taking 90K Euros from a different buyer in August 2009....did I get that right?

[Mermaid]

Originally Posted by Mark424

Not sure how the purchase cycle works on the east coast, or Caribbean, but last time I bought a boat in California, it went like this.

1. Make an Offer
2. Negotiate Price
3. Settle on Price
4. Make refundable Deposit
5. Sea Trial (no sea trial before deposit, they don't want joy riders)
6. Survey
7. Go back to seller with items found during the survey and negotiate adjustments. If you didn't like the sea trial or couldn't agree on survey compensation, you could walk away with your deposit repaid in full.
8. Make Binding commitment.

So my question is, do you do your hard bargaining upfront, or bargain a bit and plan to play hardball after the survey. My feeling is if you bargain hard upfront, you are basically in an "as-is" scenario as they are less likely to make adjustments for items found in the survey. You are basically treating the survey as a decision whether to walk. If you don't bargain hard upfront, you could be in a position where the survey doesn't find that much and have a hard time justifying a significant adjustment.

Would appreciate your thoughts and what has worked for you.

Mark

This is interesting as it is how I feel as well. We ask lots of questions from the brokers (most of them cannot answer them and if they can you have to make sure they are certain and not lying. We ask if there is anything that should be working but needs repairs or not working at all (you can ask that they put this in writing to send to the owner to disclose). If the broker is willing to ask the owner then we will put the offer on the table (as well as answering any other questions we have.) Do you want to put an offer on a boat if you don't have all your questions answered? Do you want to spend money on a survey that may or may not address those questions to later find out that the surveyor didn't find something the owner was aware off and now you have to pay to fix it?

The survey's recommendations may be a little "soft" for insurance purposes. A boat we saw recently had badly rusted keel backing plates and the screws and bolts were different sizes. It seemed to us like a safety issue but a survey done a few months earlier only listed it under recommended maintenance.

The broker that showed us a boat last week did not know anything about sailing, and could not answer any questions about the boat. When we asked "is anything in need of repair or not working?" his answer was "you get the survey done and negotiate it later" --- not in my world when my money for that survey is on the line...

We put an offer on a boat for 20% under asking price (according to our broker no other comparable boats had sold that low - he didn't even wanted to present the offer) the owner accepted our offer, our broker got greedy and we backed off the deal because the whole thing started to smell really wrong. You can read the rest of the (long) story at: Bramamare’s Blog if interested.

California is a tough place to buy a boat. The brokers are trying to keep the prices up to get better commissions and the boat prices don't go down even after a year or longer. The broker we fired told us the boats in California "do not depreciate". You may also want to make sure you will be able to get a slip for the boat before purchasing it as we know of a couple that had to keep their 46' anchored for a year before getting a slip.

[katja&david]

Originally Posted by sailorbust

Do you have a link to the original listing so we can evaluate this boat?
So someone in May 2009 offered 90K Euros, but the seller didn't take it....and then the seller ended up taking 90K Euros from a different buyer in August 2009....did I get that right?

Exact! It was us with the 90k offer and the owner chose another broker (apparently his friend) and sold the boat. Since it is off market it is not listed anymore. It was on yachtworld under YW# 74815-1515656, I still have the sheet and survey photos on my disc.

David

[asb]

Originally Posted by katja&david

Here another one in EURO, it is Lagoon 380, 2001:
Jan 2009 offered for 135k€
Mar 2009 down to 125k€
May 2009 sea trial & survey – offer to seller 90k€
Aug 2009 sold for 90k€

The end price of 90K € for this model is normal.

I would make a calculaton as follows:

Lets assume new price of the Lagoon 380 is around 240.000€ (without A/C & watermaker)

2005-2004 model should sell for %50 discount of the new, which is around 120.000€. (assuming it is well kept)

The cat in question is 2001 model, 3 yrs more means 120.000€ minus %25-30 which makes approx. 90.000€.

Of course you will see much higher asking prices but I would say the selling price for most of the cats would be around this calculation.

ps: thats my experience in eastern med. In USA may be it's different

[katja&david]

Thanks asb,
we only wanted to contribute to a clearer picture regarding the end price for used catamarans.
It is a logical formula you bring into discussion. The 2001 Lagoon 380 was a charter boat in medium condition, so the price should be even some % lower.
Now there are some FP Athenas on the market and I hope that I can quote the end prices for those too. At the moment they are 2002 – 90.000 €, 2006 – 110.000 €.

[talus]

Excellent asb!! The more people that can be educated on pricing the better. With a list of new cat prices we could build our own "black-book" for catamarans.

[schoonerdog]

There's a couple gotcha's for buying and selling boats. Always leave yourself 20k in reserve funds to fit out the boat, you'll spend it. Sails, rigging, engine work, etc. Regarding pricing, price it to the average asking price for a boat of her condition. If you price it too high, no one will bother. You used to be able to sell a boat looking very polished for a good price, possibly higher that it would otherwise be worth. But now with the internet, people look at price, year and make. That's what makes them show up. Then they look at the details.

[talus]

Does anyone have the list price on a Voyage 440 and a St Francis 44 (when St Francis last made the 44)?

[asb]

Originally Posted by katja&david

Now there are some FP Athenas on the market and I hope that I can quote the end prices for those too. At the moment they are 2002 – 90.000 €, 2006 – 110.000 €.

As you mentioned FP Athenas, there is a hopeless case here in Turkey that I know. A 1996 FP Athena trying to find a new owner for 129.000€.

Of course it is nearly impossible to sell for this price, and for the last 6 months the owner is waiting for a buyer. (changed dealer once) Probably next summer we will be still seeing his ad. The owner must be a very optimistic guy.

ps. have a search in yachtworld

[Mark424]

Originally Posted by Mermaid

This is interesting as it is how I feel as well. We ask lots of questions from the brokers (most of them cannot answer them and if they can you have to make sure they are certain and not lying. We ask if there is anything that should be working but needs repairs or not working at all (you can ask that they put this in writing to send to the owner to disclose). If the broker is willing to ask the owner then we will put the offer on the table (as well as answering any other questions we have.) Do you want to put an offer on a boat if you don't have all your questions answered? Do you want to spend money on a survey that may or may not address those questions to later find out that the surveyor didn't find something the owner was aware off and now you have to pay to fix it?

The survey's recommendations may be a little "soft" for insurance purposes. A boat we saw recently had badly rusted keel backing plates and the screws and bolts were different sizes. It seemed to us like a safety issue but a survey done a few months earlier only listed it under recommended maintenance.

The broker that showed us a boat last week did not know anything about sailing, and could not answer any questions about the boat. When we asked "is anything in need of repair or not working?" his answer was "you get the survey done and negotiate it later" --- not in my world when my money for that survey is on the line...

We put an offer on a boat for 20% under asking price (according to our broker no other comparable boats had sold that low - he didn't even wanted to present the offer) the owner accepted our offer, our broker got greedy and we backed off the deal because the whole thing started to smell really wrong. You can read the rest of the (long) story at: Bramamare’s Blog if interested.

California is a tough place to buy a boat. The brokers are trying to keep the prices up to get better commissions and the boat prices don't go down even after a year or longer. The broker we fired told us the boats in California "do not depreciate". You may also want to make sure you will be able to get a slip for the boat before purchasing it as we know of a couple that had to keep their 46' anchored for a year before getting a slip.

I like your blog. I also have an aging golden that would have loved to go on our charter out to Catalina and SB island this summer.

Years ago I bought a boat in SD though a broker who acted like my best friend and had all kinds of ideas how he could help me get reasonably priced repairs and upgrades. The minute the paperwork was signed, he was just annoyed at any discussion or request for follow through. He just wanted to get to the close so he could ignore me completely.

Did you get the 43' in spite of the broker's shenanigans? In this market, I've heard tales of people getting accepted offers for half price - I'm sure that's the exception, but I figure if they accept your first offer you offered too much.

I met a young couple while walking the docks a couple years back that had just bought a Defever trawler as a liveaboard and he said he looked high and low for the right boat himself, then when he knew he had found the right boat, called the local brokers and said they could represent him in the deal if they found him a liveaboard slip. They required them to do their job first before they got the deal. They did have a nice spot on the main channel across from the park. 2 different brokers I've talked to at the local boat show have winked and rubbed there fingers together when I asked about getting a slip, they have their ways they said. Nice huh?

We have to recognize that, just like real estate agents, the broker is not in the buyers side. Their motivation is to close the deal and maximize their cut. Similarly the surveyor is more likely to need the referral from that broker more often than he'll need one from you. I think we basically need educate ourselves to do our own informal survey, as much as possible, before the offer.

I read a post on a forum once by a fellow moving his boat here to Marina del Rey who couldn't get a straight answer on slip availability, so he just sailed up, called them all from the breakwater, said I'm here, do you want my money or not. And lo and behold he got a slip. He would have been in a tough spot if he didn't find a slip, but just one more anecdote that you have to push and push and push till you get what you want.

What kind of boats are you looking at?

[sailvi767]

Originally Posted by talus

Does anyone have the list price on a Voyage 440 and a St Francis 44 (when St Francis last made the 44)?

The Voyage 440 plus brand new and charter ready is running around 525,000.00. The Charter package is fairly extensive and includes genset, Airconditioning, electric main winch, 12 RIB, 15hp outboard and lots of other upgrades. I think the basic boat is around 440,000.00. The fluctuations of the dollar the last month may have pushed the price higher.

[Full Sail]

Multihulls Magazine has an excellent article in the current issue. It discusses carribean vs. US used boats. Anyone interested in this thread and serious about buying should go to their website an make the investment, They have a digital version available

[asb]

Originally Posted by Mark424

We have to recognize that, just like real estate agents, the broker is not in the buyers side. Their motivation is to close the deal and maximize their cut. Similarly the surveyor is more likely to need the referral from that broker more often than he'll need one from you. I think we basically need educate ourselves to do our own informal survey, as much as possible, before the offer.

Some brokers are the main barriers for the buyers and sellers. I have seen few deals gone bust just because of the broker. It is absolutely correct what you have mentioned.

Before you make an offer I would suggest the following:

1. Inform yourself about the new prices of that cat with the options. Make an offer after that.

2. Always demand a meeting with the owner from the broker. Bargaining face to face with the owner is essential. If the broker refuses to introduce you with the owner, there must be something fishy. Move on to the next boat/broker.

3. If she is the boat you desired, with a bit of research, you can always find the owner.

Good luck to everybody, including me for the search.