Asking Price vs Selling Price - Caribbean Cats?

[drboucher]

Thanks Salvi767 for the first hand info. on Moorings maintenance. Your initialling of regular maintenance itmes sounds like something a pilot may do, hmmmm. We hope your experience was one that was isolated. The condition of our boat from the pre-purchase survey was clean and findings relatively minor. The Moorings have agreed to fix many of the items. This was calculated in the price we finally agreed upon. Considering our cruising plans, the layout, headroom, performance, ease of systems compared to other cats, the Leopard 47 was by far the best value. We have also ordered and will have installed the hardtop from BVI Painters prior to the boat leaving BVI.

[Laidback]

One factor that has been covered is buying an former chartered catamaran. For example:- a 40ft 2004/5 listed at say $250,000 US.
At survey (excluding motors and drives) comes out clean and in good nick. After bargaining agreed to sell at $197,000 = Deal done.
However, it is probable the boat seldom sailed for very long during each individual charter, resulting in engines that had really worked excessively hard for the boats life (besides the fact that many charted designs contain engines that are under powered) And the other factor is that a Charter cat is fitted with only the minimum basic equipment, just enough for the uninitiated crew to use and understand.
So, on the hypothetical $197,000 paid - what will the new (non-charterer) owner expect to pay to bring the boat to a standard where it can leave happily to cruise the oceans beyond ???
New larger engines & drivetrains.
Electronics upgrade
Communication equipment
Navigation equipment upgrade
Ground Tackle
Cordage renewal
Antifouling - painting
Sails and Rigging where necessary
Tender and engine
Etc... Etc

All the buyer can say is "Thank the Heavens that I didn't buy that boat at the list price !"

[Full Sail]

a fewother items that haven't been mentioned is if you are going to bring the boat back to the US, there are import fees and delivery fees to be considered. Most charter boats AC electrical systems are not compatible with US either.

[CarlF]

If there's one piece of financial "truth" I've learned, it is to believe in cycles. You don't know exactly when the cycle will turn -- but turn it will. And the turn is almost always quicker than the experts on TV predict (as has happened in equities since March).

Housing is still going through the bursting of one of the biggest speculative bubbles in history. While it might have been correlated with boats in the past, it isn't now. Boats weren't part of that bubble. There is not a huge supply of brand new sailboats sitting around like Florida condos and prices had been pretty stable for a decade. Of course, boat prices got hit in the recession and credit freeze like every other discretionary good.

It's still near the bottom of the cycle. Could it go down more? Sure. It's hard to know the bottom except in hindsight. But the odds against it are increasing everyday. The cruising sailboat market was pretty healthy 12 months ago. If I was a betting man (and I am) I'd say that "in demand" cruising sailboats will be selling at substantially higher prices 12 months from now.

Carl

[rigamarole]

Can you give us an idea how much a hard top costs?

[drboucher]

Chris at BVI Painters in Nanny Cay Marina, Tortolla has the original mold for the 47 Leopard. This hardtop includes dimming lights, and top helmsman window. Installed the price is around 12,000.

[Herbseesmoore]

I see a charter boat, Bahia 46, for 548k 2006 and the ad tells me how great it is. I see another Bahia 2001 for 250k out of charter and of course it prob needs something serious, but 300k buys alot of serious. The original post ask what will they really go for, any guesses? Of course I can only think about the one for 250k and would have to get it for a lot less.

And now comes the latest listing, for a 1998 181k ( 387 dollars on the end of that, always makes me laugh), I'm awaiting details. If the hulls are equal and we know they last a good long time. Again 368k buys a lot of everything. So whats up with that. I'll have to take the "cheapie" then add engines, total rerig, and new sails, Oh yeah, who wants old electronics, I'll end up with exactly what I want.

Hows my logic, get the fixer upper, of course thats all I can budget for.

[Atlantic42]

You get what you pay for. Pay now or pay latter. Projects are great, I've had several myself. Consider why you want the boat.... for a project or to sail. Projects = lots of time, sweat, tears, blood and LOTS of money. Or a boat really in your budget that you can afford to sail, upgrade and enjoy?

Life is short... choose how you want to spend you time.

Back in early 2008 when shopping for catamarans by accident I came across a Catamaran undergoing repairs for a major accident! The boat was a FP and in a french boat yard surrounded by lots hulks of broken dreams. The FP had a large portion of the starboard bow was missing and I was marveling at shear amount of foam sandwich construction that was missing or crushed and splayed about. Can't say for sure that is was a charter boat, but based on the overall condition it appeared to be... To think of the poor sucker who ended up getting that boat for a low price later... you get what you pay for. If it seems to good to be true then their is most likely a back story that no one is telling you.

[Herbseesmoore]

Thats some blog!, so back on topic, what were they asking and how much did you pay. If anyone could give advice on a project boat, you are the Man!

I look at a cat coming out of the charter, Moorings, Sunsail at 250k and wonder what the owner really expects to get. I imagine that no one really knows and that each case is different of course. Part of my "problem" is I'm so happy to be retired (as of Feb) that its hard to stay focused on the boat buying mission. So we remain patient and watchful.

Boo Hoo.
Just bought a Canoe!
Gotta have something on the water!

[Full Sail]

Herb-

I just bought my Bahia June 1. Its a 1999. I had been looking about a year. The problem with the boats in charter in the Carribean is that many of them aren't available for up to 2 years yet. The French boats are often owned by a corporate group and their asking price is pretty much what they will sell it for. Privately owned boats are the way to go IMHO. Get a good broker, I was using John Anderson of the Catamaran Co. A good broker understands what you are looking for,whats on the market, and gets information on newly available boats before they hit the internet.

Get your preapproval if you are going to get a loan also. Turns out my broker called me one day and told me I needed to check out this boat. It was pretty far out of my range, and I probably wouldn't have made an offer. Well the owner was a wealthy person who wanted to get rid of it so he could get a (gasp) motor boat. Listed $315 and sold for $273. Its an owners version, full of spares. 7 sails...lots of high end electronics..etc.

I feel I just put myself in the right place at the right time with the right people.

PS There is a Bahia in Ft. Lauderdale. Almost everyone looking for a Bahia has seen it. The price on it bounces around a lot, but it is in really bad shape. Delamination of the hulls being one of the problems. Reportedly that was fixed, but I'd probably stay away from that one.

[drboucher]

I can only speak for a Leopard 47, former Moorings charter from experience. The 47 has 56 hp Yanmars that push at 8 knots, nearly 7 on one engine. Hardly underpowered. No saildrive, straight shaft. Unless you are getting a less than 5 year old boat I would imagine you would update some electronics (probably just the GPS, maybe radar as wind, speed, depth, vhf are fine) before an extended cruise. Typically the charter company (Moorings does) gives you new sails at 50% discount, new bottom paint with zincs, and all rigging inspected and replaced during their phaseout. You can then outfit the boat the way you want too. New electronics, new RO system, new sails, or whatever you want, rather than getting a boat outfitted with some things you may not want, plus they are brand new, installed by you with warranties. No equipment you will pay for that you will take out. So now the theorectical 197,000 base price doesn't look like a such a bad deal after all.

[asb]

I see some very exagerated prices for used cats. Some of the used cats I see are more expensive than the new ones.

Maybe it is because VAT and tax issues in that country, but with those prices some of them are impossible to sell.

I quess there are 3 prices for a cat.

1. Price that your heart desires. (which is the highest)
2. Asking price
3. Selling price

[sailvi767]

There is some miss information here. Most charter cats are not underpowered. Usually they are ordered with the largest engine offered as a option. The Moorings 4700 comes with 56 HP yanmars. The Moorings 4300 and Voyage 440 for charter come with 40 HP yanmars. The Voyage 440 will motor at almost 9 knots flat out and cruise at 6.5 knots on one engine at 2700 rpm burning 1 gallon per hour of fuel. The 4700 will motor at 8.5 knots on both motors and I once had one bashing into a 30 knot wind still doing 6 knots plus at cruise rpms.
As far as condition of the boats this is where getting a good surveyor who knows the boat type is very important. The Moorings is very good at cosmetic repairs and very bad at structural repairs. If a boat suffers bad damage they often don't even notify the owner because they want to fix it themselves and get it back on the water asap. Their structural repairs will rarely if ever conform to the builders manual. A good surveyor will catch this type of repair. Most boats in the Moorings fleet do not suffer major structural damage while in charter but you want to make sure you don't get the boat that did.
A typical 4700 will have about 5000 hours of run time on the main engines. There will be more time on the port engine since it runs the mechanical fridge unit. These engines are good for 10,000 hours. Its unlikely as a new owner you will put 5000 more hours on the engine in under 10 years. The genset is however another issue. Since the Moorings boats have undersized house battery banks and no inverter the gensets get abused. If a charterer wants to blend a drink they fire up the genset and then shut if right back down when down with the blender. 10 minutes later someone else on the boat starts it up to run the microwave for popcorn ect... Diesel engines hate being started and stopped often. Unless the genset recently died and the Moorings replaced it I would consider any genset on a Moorings boat as DOA if you are purchasing the boat. They also require oil changes every 200 hours or basically each charter and that is not being done by the Moorings.
If you pick up a structurally sound 4700 after the 5 year charter program with the Moorings and put a new electrical system into the boat along with a hardtop bimini you can get it all down and be out the door for 300k. This would include a 800 amp hour house bank, 2500 watt inverter, new genset. You can have a great boat at a excellent price.
On the last subject of sail verses shaft drives. I really like shaft drives from a maintenance standpoint. When I decided to go with the Voyage 440 the sail drives were a big concern and almost made me look at other options. Sail drives however give you many advantages. They are quieter and smoother. The engines are further aft and isolated completely from the main cabin in their own watertight compartment. The 4300 and 4700 always seemed to have a bit of engine smell in the aft staterooms since the engines are under the berths and not isolated. In the end I think its a wash between the to options. Don't however get me started on cone clutches in sail drives!!

George

[asb]

Last few weeks I have been talking to some distributors of Cat companies. Here are my conclusions:

The Cat companies and their distributors are ready to discuss discounts on the new boat purchases. They told me that they have special prices before I asked. This wasn't the case when I bought my last boat few years ago. This is good news for us buyers.

I have the impression that new boat orders are sharply declining and the companies will be pushed for deeper discounts when the summer is over, for 2010 deliveries.

I haven't concluded the purchase yet, because it is summer here and in winter (October-November) it is ideal time to start hard bargaining. I know from experience that best prices you can get when it is snowing!! Not forgetting the markets will also slip further then.

So don't be shy to ask for discounts. This is more so for the used boats. The chances are high that you get the price you want.

[asb]

I did a quick search in Yachtworld. The numbers are the totals for sale at the moment. And only in Yachworld. The numbers must be higher when we consider the other websites.

It is definitely a "buyers market" at the moment. Good time for buying, I guess.

Lagoon - 270

Fountaine Pajot - 247

Leopard - 63

Catana - 90

Privilege - 122