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Old 06-11-2006, 20:25   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli
Rick, utimate stability is the abiltiy to recover from a knockdown. On a multi you do reach a point of dimishing stabilty that you can not recover from.

No joke, ask Arthur Piver.
There is always this assumption that a monohull will self - right. It isn't always true however. Mono's are also stable floating upside-down. (for the short time they actually stay afloat) Have a look at a stability curve .
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Old 06-11-2006, 21:26   #32
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People buy the boats that they want to buy and can afford to buy. Hell, I have no idea what the stability curve of my boat is... I wouldn't even know how to start looking for it. I bought a monohull because (a) I am familiar with monuhulls and unfamiliar with catamarans, and (b) because I could afford a monohull but couldn't afford a catamaran.

I have been sailing for a lot of years and I have never been on a monohull that sunk nor a catamaran that pitch-poled and/or inverted. Hell I have never even seen, with my own eyes, a monohull sink nor a catamaran flip over. I've seen some rigs fall over and some pretty big holes put in boats, but I've never actually seen sink/flip first hand.... so why should I let such a rare eventuality be any sort of deciding factor in what sort of boat I choose? I have sailed my old tub in 50knots of breeze with 5m waves.... it neither sunk nor flipped. These days, there ain't an awful lot of excuse for being out in much worse than that unless you chose to be.

Go with what you like and what you can afford. Be happy with your choice and don't begrudge the other guy his choice just because it is different from your choice. The "safety" of a given boat, whether monohull or catamaran (or trimaran) is far more a function of the competence of its crew that the strengths and weaknesses of it's design & geometry.
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Old 07-11-2006, 17:26   #33
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The safety question always seems to revolve around capsizing which is probably the least likely "bad" thing to happen. Think about getting hit by lightning, punching a hole in the hull from hitting debris, having a thru hull fail, or tearing the bottom out on a reef. Would you rather have these more lilkely "bad" things happen on a boat with positve bouyancy even when filled with water or one that will be resting on the bottom if it fills with water? You are also less likely to fall overboard on a boat that is not heeling at 20-30 degrees.
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Old 07-11-2006, 18:13   #34
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Just for the record, I see lots of people talking about monohulls sailing at 25 or even 30 degrees of heel. If you are sailing at these sorts of angles of heel you are sailing horrible inefficently and need to either ease sheet or reduce sail area. 15 degrees is probably a good heel angle aim at, if you find yourself getting up toward 20 degrees, its time to ease or reduce sails. not that any of the above is relevant to this debate
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Old 07-11-2006, 22:12   #35
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Even at 15 % i'm still spilling my drink's. My mono's were cheap to buy but expensive to sail, went through a carton of beer a day, only got to drink a few , the rest went to the bilge god.

Just bein' silly, if you can't afford a good multi, you should be able to get a good mono, and theres plenty out there. Just not my choice.

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Old 08-11-2006, 14:07   #36
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The bilge God got the beer?? No wonder you're building that beauty of a boat. It will certainly fix that problem!!

Rick in Florida
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Old 08-11-2006, 14:09   #37
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it's not about being efficient

Quote:
Originally Posted by Weyalan
Just for the record, I see lots of people talking about monohulls sailing at 25 or even 30 degrees of heel.
Weyalan -- it's not about being efficient. How else do you discourage the "admiral" from showing up on the boat? These guys know what they're doing!!

Rick in Florida
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Old 08-11-2006, 14:18   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli
Your boat has never taken a knockdown, our boat has never sunk. But you can't argue physics. Just as a mono will sink if it is holed, a multi will not recover from a knockdown. They are what they are.
Jolie,

My boat has never been knocked down because it's been designed to never be knocked down. In 20+ years none of the 500+ boats produced has suffered this fate. It's not an accident, it's by DESIGN.

Let me say that again... D E S I G N

Originally the manufacturer posted a 25,000 pound (it's a British boat) reward for any owner who could even raise one hull out of the water. It was never paid.

If you carefully read the previous posts in this thread, you will understand that the conversation was regarding catamarans without daggerboards having never capsized. If you didn't read the posts, then why are you replying?

Again, A pitchpole is possible, however as with all pitchpoles, regardless of hull type, this is crew error, not a design flaw.

Rick in Florida
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Old 08-11-2006, 19:57   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rickm505
Jolie,

My boat has never been knocked down because it's been designed to never be knocked down. In 20+ years none of the 500+ boats produced has suffered this fate. It's not an accident, it's by DESIGN.

Let me say that again... D E S I G N

Originally the manufacturer posted a 25,000 pound (it's a British boat) reward for any owner who could even raise one hull out of the water. It was never paid.

If you carefully read the previous posts in this thread, you will understand that the conversation was regarding catamarans without daggerboards having never capsized. If you didn't read the posts, then why are you replying?

Again, A pitchpole is possible, however as with all pitchpoles, regardless of hull type, this is crew error, not a design flaw.

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Old 09-11-2006, 02:06   #40
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I believe a 20 year history with no incidents vs believing a monohull guy stuck back in the 1970's.

Rick in Florida
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Old 10-11-2006, 22:09   #41
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Keep it down there rick, with all that squabbling its hard to hear the Bee gees tape that came with my 1973 monohull!
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Old 10-11-2006, 22:56   #42
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Is it an 8 track???
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Old 11-11-2006, 04:32   #43
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it must be
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Old 11-11-2006, 09:38   #44
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As I study the concepts of cruising I'm finding these to be valuable notes: summing info from the thread,
Quote:
SMM, 31-10-2006
For coastal work, or short hops, I think that speed is a huge safety advantage. For example if you're sailing from Australia to New Caledonia in a fast cat (4 -5 days) you can make the entire crossing in one weather system which you can monitor 15 different ways prior to jumping off. A slower boat (7 - 8 days) can start in good weather, but will have to take whatever comes along for those last three days.
Having two engines (hopefully with fully a redundant charging system) is a huge safety benefit, probably more significant than anything else in this post. Safety at anchor is probably more signifiant than safety at sea and here, I think that cats have a huge advantage here as they can anchor in 4 feet of water with bomb proof 10:1 scope, get the best shelter, and remain clear of (most) other boats.
And lastly, having a boat that is easy to board from the water is a huge safety advantage. It is regrettably common to drown because you can't get back aboard your boat. Transom steps seem to be pretty universal on cats.
But all these advantages are probably quite small compared to the effect of prudent seamanship on any sort of boat.
-Scott
Quote:
Jeff H 21-5-2003
For example, one way that a cat maintains its safety is that it disburses the energy of a big gust by accellerating rather than heeling. All boats do that to one extent or another, but in a Catamaran this is a critical part of its survival tools. As modern cruising cats have gotten heavier and are being asked to carry more 'stuff', they really are loosing both the ability to absorb a big puff by just going faster and they are also losing their speed
advantages over monohulls, which have progressively gotten faster.
and
Quote:
captjohn360 02-03-2005
anny boat will sink,burn, or run aground or be run over given the right curcumstances (carelessness). boats float because of displacement.and have been known to sink at the dock.are they safe? as safe as you make them. be prudent know where you are going watch the weather and ask for local guidence when necessary. my cat has been hit by rogue waves and taken blue water completely over the salon ripping the dingy of the stern. also has survived 2 direct hits by hurricanes where we were, there were 9 other boats only 2 survived intact both cats. i personly think cats are as safe as anny other kind of boat if you are a safe captian. jt
Quote:
Alan Wheeler 02-03-2005
IMO, anyone thinking of cruising, especially long term cruising, should be preparing for the worst case scenario, a severe storm. So the question must be asked, how is the vessel type going to handle the worse case conditions and the even bigger question, how easy is it for her crew to handle the vessel in those conditions. The biggest concern that arises
from most sailors when met with those scenarios, is how to slow the boat down. High performance hulls and that includes mono, produce that one very common complaint from the pro sailors when faced with bad weather, They can't slow the thing down and are fighting to maintane control throughout the storm and it severly tests the abilities of those pro sailors.
So how much more testing is it, to the humble cruiser.
And most helpful real comments:
Quote:
captjohn360 02-03-2005
( you should choose a boat for its intended use) also your experiance. if you want to stop or slow down put on the brakes! on a boat there is several ways to do this. first slacken the sheet ,adjust topping lift, reef your sails.than deploy a drogue .deploy a sea anchor. these heavy weather tactics have saved manny a life and boat if i was to make anny open water crossing i would have a sea anchor for safety just as you would a life jacket. jt
I find the thoughts and wisdoms to be timeless and relevent. The how to and what to do points are most critical for me so that when the Captain starts barking orders I have a clue of what to do!

Another note, there is no comparison between sailing a beachcat and sailing a cruising cat. My 110lbs trapping out on a cruising cat just wouldn't make any difference.
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Old 11-11-2006, 10:26   #45
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Quote:
As modern cruising cats have gotten heavier and are being asked to carry more 'stuff', they really are loosing both the ability to absorb a big puff by just going faster and they are also losing their speed
advantages over monohulls, which have progressively gotten faster.
I dont think any cruising cat is heavier than the original cruising cats e.g. Prouts. after all they make full use of methods of lightening that are available within the design. However you cant take into account those people who carry everything including the kitchen sink! The speed advantage is eroded by a lot of the new monohull designs that frankly are too lightly built to take a major storm, but work very well in less than 10 kts breeze.

Personally I would rather cruise in a boat designed to be able to cope with the bad weather, meanwhile I will continue to try to avoid it!
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