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Old 14-02-2010, 14:28   #76
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Originally Posted by TaoJones View Post
Your belief that today was upwind/downwind is probably the source of your confusion, speedo. The first, race, Thursday, was upwind/downwind, but today's race was on a reaching course.

Once they rounded the windward mark, they bore off on two reaching legs. The only time the vessels sailed downwind was after the gybe to get back to the finish line.

I suggest that you watch the race again on ESPN360.com and pay attention to the commentary of Gary Jobson and Randy Smyth. If you're right, and I'm wrong, then Jobson and Smyth are also wrong.

Still want to assert your certitude, speedo?

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I am not confused at all. I am well aware that today's race was a triangle with a reaching leg to the finish. However, the final reaching leg became more of a downwind leg due to the wind shift to the right (looking upwind), so much so that the boats had to jibe to the finish line. So from a tactical point of view, it was a downwind leg.

Unfortunately my internet provider does not give me access to your source, so I can't listen to what Jobson and Smyth had to say. (I watched on the BMW Oracle site) My guess is that you misunderstood them, because we are arguing about a very basic concept here that any racing sailor understands completely.

My certitude (your word) comes from decades of sailboat racing experience at a fairly high level and thousands of mental calculations about approaching downwind marks and finishes.
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Old 14-02-2010, 14:40   #77
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So Coutts wins the cup with TNZ,sucessfully defends with TNZ,jumps ship and wins with Allinghi AGAINST TNZ, sucessfully defends with Allinghi AGAINST TNZ, wins with BMWO AGAINST Allinghi, see a trend here, i predict a succesfull defence for BMWO and then Larry had better be writing a particularly large check or Mr coutts will be lining up against him the next go round and we all know how that turns out.
I hope they come up with more sensible boats next go round though,im suprised that Allinghi didnt build a wing,after all cats have been using them for decades in the little americas cup.
Steve.
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Old 14-02-2010, 14:42   #78
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I agree about the VOR. I was talking about this with a friend: why hasn't someone harnessed the video from that race for a reality/documentary show. It's got to be at least as interesting as watching guys catch king crab!
Everyone is talking about the speed in the AC 33 - I wonder how many have watched VOR over the years? much more excitement than those Cats at speed especially when you factor in the conditions that would have EB/Allighi hiding under his bed.
the only weakness for VOR is the TV package - at least in the usa - used to be able to find a weekly recap program during the race but it was not easy - they need an espn 360 contract.

If You have been in a city where they stop - Volvo & local sailing community does a great promoting & interacting with "common folk"
Adding Cats for local races has generated interest too.

AC33 Multis remind me of Formula 1 cars - amazing technology, incredible speed & G forces - but the $$$ & engineering has taken the true F1 racing out of it when the driver made most of the difference.......so you end up with less competition, fewer teams, spectacular failures, crazy rules and boring races in too many cases.

Watched the press conferences - Wow, EB/Allighi was Whining BIG time - you name it, he complained about it including the wave height (huh?) today.
That lake sailing has really affected him......You have to watch it - amazing poor sportsmanship especially for a team that has held the cup. He never mentioned his bad driving, humm.

Monos have much more appeal to me because many of us can "relate" even if their mono is carbon fiber & cost millions - no one can look at those two boats today & relate.......let's all go down & play with our wing or water ballast to see if we can get a few more knts out.
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Old 14-02-2010, 16:04   #79
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I think AC 33 was the most boring event ever. It was won by the smarter lawyer and the deeper pocket. In fact, I fell asleep during the second race, only to wake up towards the end of it and find that the faster boat was indeed sailing faster than the slower boat. No big drama.

However, I LOVE the boats, they are so incredibly beautiful - much more exciting than monohulls used in earlier editions. I hope the future events will be sailed on multihulls. But I also hope they will be more 'monotype' so that the better sailors, not lawyers, win.

BTW I also hope the future events will not be postponed / canceled because someone designs a boat that can sail only when it blows exactly 7.5 knots and the waves are not more than 5 feet. As it it was at AC33 it was just mocking the sport.

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Old 14-02-2010, 16:48   #80
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I think AC 33 was the most boring event ever. In fact, I fell asleep during the second race, only to wake up towards the end of it and find that the faster boat was indeed sailing faster than the slower boat. No big drama.However, I LOVE the boats, they are so incredibly beautiful - much more exciting than monohulls used in earlier editions
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Huh

Louis Vuitton '07 and many prior AC races had much more action & drama than AC33.

Agreed this was a "unique" AC with all the rigamaroll - but other than the speed not more exciting - take out 2 or 3 moves of the two races and we would all be sleeping - if the races were not so early in the day.

Not to say those guys were not working their butts off or they are not top flight pro sailors - wish Allighi had allowed cameras & mikes on the boats - as that would have added a lot to the broadcast.

Kinda like watching a NHRA Funny car - amazing but after a few seconds it's done. Instant gratification racing.

They have to "fix" the format no matter what to get back to the original format of challengers and then AC - it would be great to increase "citizenship" on each boat to get the nationalism back into the game too.

This was more like two guys drag racing their expensive imported sports car on a deserted street at midnight
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Old 14-02-2010, 17:10   #81
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Alinghi : Defender of the 33rd America's Cup

Ernesto Bertarelli (SUI) Team President and helm Alinghi (SUI):
“ They had a strategy. They got a little help from the legal system in New York that always makes things difficult for us Europeans to get the same sort advantages. They were able to change their boat when they saw ours, they were able to bring a wing and they were faster. So, good on them. Maybe I wouldn’t have done the same thing, but that is the America’s Cup, it is not the European Cup, it is the America’s Cup. The Americans have a bit of an advantage but they take the Cup back home. Let’s see what happens now.”
“ The best part is not actually having the silverware itself. The best part is having the team that is successful, which has a spirit, which wins and god knows if we had won. If any team that has won over the last ten years has won it is Alinghi. Now these last two races we did not win, we were disadvantaged we didn’t have a boat which was quite fast enough, but with the boat we had, with the odds we had we did our best to show that we were not going to lay down. We exit with our heads high.”

I bet next year BMWOracle will have a motor...
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Old 14-02-2010, 17:30   #82
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Alinghi : Defender of the 33rd America's Cup

Ernesto Bertarelli (SUI) Team President and helm Alinghi (SUI):
“ They had a strategy. They got a little help from the legal system in New York that always makes things difficult for us Europeans to get the same sort advantages. They were able to change their boat when they saw ours, they were able to bring a wing and they were faster. So, good on them. Maybe I wouldn’t have done the same thing, but that is the America’s Cup, it is not the European Cup, it is the America’s Cup. The Americans have a bit of an advantage but they take the Cup back home. Let’s see what happens now.”
“ The best part is not actually having the silverware itself. The best part is having the team that is successful, which has a spirit, which wins and god knows if we had won. If any team that has won over the last ten years has won it is Alinghi. Now these last two races we did not win, we were disadvantaged we didn’t have a boat which was quite fast enough, but with the boat we had, with the odds we had we did our best to show that we were not going to lay down. We exit with our heads high.”

I bet next year BMWOracle will have a motor...
Headbanger - Berterelli can say anything he wants to, but in fact Alinghi played the legal game as much or more than the Americans. The bottom line here is that BMW/O won on the water - handily. Even the penalties didn't make a difference. Alinghi opened the rules up wide, so can't be surprised that the challenger showed up with an unknown commodity. That's the risk you run when you let anything (or nearly anything) go.
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Old 14-02-2010, 17:34   #83
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Geography Not His Strong Suit

"Us Europeans" = you talking to me Lone Ranger (pc version)

1/2 the Alinghi team is from down under..........maybe they all changed their citizenship once the checks cleared

You definitely gotta watch the press conference tape - print does not do it justice - it will bring tears to your eyes watching a sore losing Billionaire whine - there will be a fund raising concert for him shortly

He had no sympathy when he won the cup by stacking the deck - so just HTFU and congratulate the winners
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Old 14-02-2010, 17:43   #84
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Headbanger - Berterelli can say anything he wants to, but in fact Alinghi played the legal game as much or more than the Americans. The bottom line here is that BMW/O won on the water - handily. Even the penalties didn't make a difference. Alinghi opened the rules up wide, so can't be surprised that the challenger showed up with an unknown commodity. That's the risk you run when you let anything (or nearly anything) go.
But he had to play.. the winner should choose the place and rules of the race, but it was BMWOracle that choose... Well but like they said, the cup it´s back to america.
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Old 14-02-2010, 18:17   #85
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"Us Europeans" = you talking to me Lone Ranger (pc version)

1/2 the Alinghi team is from down under..........maybe they all changed their citizenship once the checks cleared
Yes, and only ONE of TEN crew aboard BMWO was from the USA (two if you include Larry in Race 2).

Congratulations to the fine sailors from the Golden Gate Yacht Club...
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Old 14-02-2010, 18:56   #86
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Yes, and only ONE of TEN crew aboard BMWO was from the USA (two if you include Larry in Race 2).
No argument here - never said it was an American team - but that's what makes the statement so ridiculous - but if you watch & listen to EB, you would think he & the poor "europeans" were mugged in a back alley by some american NFL linemen. Think Alinghi really accelerated the de-nationalization of teams way back when - think if the Aussies & Kiwis got everyone back plus a truck load of $$$ - the folks down under always put on great sailing events.

Obviously, LE really got under his skin during the legal battles because he made a number of references to it including cases that are pending and he was going to complain / whine all the way down the drain

kinda funny watching BB during the news conference when EB(got 95% of the questions - including one when a US reporter got him to dance/gag on his own words that was even crazier) was making some of these bizarre statements. The only people who look worse than EB were the US auto execs who jetting in to congress to ask for bail out or maybe wall street execs. Maybe EB is headed to congress for a bailout. At least, we know know how he feels - so he gets A for honesty but F for sportsmanship, not to mention how he mishandled the whole Cup responsibility in general.

LE has to manage that responsibility well - EB had the nerve to question if he really would / could.
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Old 14-02-2010, 19:42   #87
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Didn't see the race so can't comment on the sail moves but if they were deep on the last leg the breeze backed. (ie went left)

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I am not confused at all. I am well aware that today's race was a triangle with a reaching leg to the finish. However, the final reaching leg became more of a downwind leg due to the wind shift to the right (looking upwind), so much so that the boats had to jibe to the finish line. So from a tactical point of view, it was a downwind leg.

Unfortunately my internet provider does not give me access to your source, so I can't listen to what Jobson and Smyth had to say. (I watched on the BMW Oracle site) My guess is that you misunderstood them, because we are arguing about a very basic concept here that any racing sailor understands completely.

My certitude (your word) comes from decades of sailboat racing experience at a fairly high level and thousands of mental calculations about approaching downwind marks and finishes.
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Old 14-02-2010, 19:45   #88
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the good news is that the race is coming to SF Bay. Which means we'll finally see some ACC boats that can handle a bit of wind. And ship traffic. And ferry wakes.

The motto for AC #34 ought to be "making it real."

One thing you can take to the bank for this next cup: there will be a far larger spectator fleet than you saw in Valencia. And they'll be a lot closer to the action. Correction: I should say, "We'll be a lot closer to the action."
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Old 14-02-2010, 20:40   #89
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One thing you can take to the bank for this next cup: there will be a far larger spectator fleet than you saw in Valencia. And they'll be a lot closer to the action. Correction: I should say, "We'll be a lot closer to the action."
Well, if AC34 is held off San Francisco at this time of year, which is to say mid-winter, then I doubt there would be many hardy souls spectating from the water.

Holding an America's Cup in mid-winter in the Northern Hemisphere is just one of the things about AC33 that was wrong. If memory serves, that was dictated by the NY court, and BOR tried to negotiate with Alinghi for a later match - spring or summer. Alinghi refused to negotiate.

Had Alinghi actually agreed to a match in warmer conditions, the spectator fleet would undoubtedly have been much larger. More to the point, though, Alinghi could have used the additional time to possibly have a wing constructed - the major advantage enjoyed by BOR in AC33 was primarily the result of their wing sail.

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Old 14-02-2010, 20:57   #90
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Well, if AC34 is held off San Francisco at this time of year, which is to say mid-winter, then I doubt there would be many hardy souls spectating from the water.

Holding an America's Cup in mid-winter in the Northern Hemisphere is just one of the things about AC33 that was wrong. If memory serves, that was dictated by the NY court, and BOR tried to negotiate with Alinghi for a later match - spring or summer. Alinghi refused to negotiate.

Had Alinghi actually agreed to a match in warmer conditions, the spectator fleet would undoubtedly have been much larger. More to the point, though, Alinghi could have used the additional time to possibly have a wing constructed - the major advantage enjoyed by BOR in AC33 was primarily the result of their wing sail.

TaoJones
This wasn't somehting that was won in the courts it is part of the original deed. As I remember it EB could have decided to race in warmer climates but they would have had to been in the Southern Hemisphere.
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