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Old 12-10-2016, 05:50   #31
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

This thread is interesting to me. Despite the performance possibilities catamarans offer, the focus of this discussion is overwhelmingly on liveability - space and creature comforts - and almost not at all on sailing characteristics. To me, this goes pretty far in explaining why catamaran manufacturers are focusing on these attributes, oftentimes at the sacrifice of sailing performance. The market has spoken!
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:06   #32
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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This thread is interesting to me. Despite the performance possibilities catamarans offer, the focus of this discussion is overwhelmingly on liveability - space and creature comforts - and almost not at all on sailing characteristics. To me, this goes pretty far in explaining why catamaran manufacturers are focusing on these attributes, oftentimes at the sacrifice of sailing performance. The market has spoken!
I could not agree more ..... very well put! ........ I guess it is like buying a house (in a way) if the admiral likes the kitchen and bathrooms you are half way there!!!

One can get a lot more performance ..... you just need to dust off your wallet and then some. And whether you want too

The sailing aspect is a key consideration for me based on the following criteria
My ability to sail the cat short handed as the ones I have sailed differ greatly on this aspect.
Performance under sail - I realise in the non dagger board cats this difference is marginal
visibility from the helm
Comfort at the helm for both of us
My sense of safety (and comfort) with the boat.

I think another big factor is what one intends to do with the cat.
Sail around the world or sail around some beautiful islands or both!~
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Old 12-10-2016, 06:08   #33
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post
This thread is interesting to me. Despite the performance possibilities catamarans offer, the focus of this discussion is overwhelmingly on liveability - space and creature comforts - and almost not at all on sailing characteristics. To me, this goes pretty far in explaining why catamaran manufacturers are focusing on these attributes, oftentimes at the sacrifice of sailing performance. The market has spoken!
I wanted to add a lot more at the start but I cannot agree with you more. Many Cats and Monos ( Benne/Jen/Duf etc) are making good boats with Ikea looking cabins to appeal to liveability and the spouse that is tolerating a boat purchase. Some are boats I would buy ( St Francis! ) and others no way.

Did anyone look at the Balance 50? I have met several owners that have circled the globe in these Cats and if I had the $$$ I'd be torn between a Balance, a Hylas 56, Amel 55 and Oyster 625. My personal 2016 show choice for Cat is the St Francis, it felt like I could go anywhere lower lat sailing in it and be comfy and safe. Mono is a toss up between the Hylas 56 and Amel 55 with a nod to the Hylas. ( I do not like the engine room cockpit access of the Amel. It is the only thing outside the Volvo Penta I do not like about the
Amel, and if I can afford the Amel, I can ditch the green junk.)

The show felt overloaded with "Condomarans" for charter. There were still some great Cats and Monos I liked.

For me the most disappointing boat was the Southerly 57. Tight spaces and chopped up. Have to duck to move around the aft cabin in a nice looking well made boat.

...and if I were cruising as a couple on the coast and Caribbean only, I'd go with my favorite Gemini 35.
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Old 12-10-2016, 17:47   #34
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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Thanks for the update, can't wait to see some pics...


need some help sailing? drop me a pm................................................ .



meatservo
Here's a tour of down below. Sorry for the editing quality.....no sound

https://vimeo.com/187099559
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Old 12-10-2016, 20:23   #35
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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Originally Posted by SVNeko View Post
This thread is interesting to me. Despite the performance possibilities catamarans offer, the focus of this discussion is overwhelmingly on liveability - space and creature comforts - and almost not at all on sailing characteristics. To me, this goes pretty far in explaining why catamaran manufacturers are focusing on these attributes, oftentimes at the sacrifice of sailing performance. The market has spoken!
I believe it has been expressed a few times, so at the cost of sounding redundant, "it depends". My take from my own personal point of view is that while I want to cruise and enjoy the sailing aspect, I also know that I will have my better half with me. Additionally, my children and their children will want to come enjoy the boat as well some day. So while the intrigue of the sailing to me is paramount, realistically, I also need to take a middle of the road approach.

If I had translated my love of sailing early on in my marriage and transferred that to my children, along with my passion for diving, my bet is that my family would be all about the sailing. Note to self for next life So we are BIG divers and fledgling sailors. Soon to be BIG on both.

In all seriousness, reading the posts on this forum have helped bring me to different conclusions on several elements of sailing and cruising since I joined. For that, I am grateful!
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Old 13-10-2016, 09:08   #36
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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At the show, someone handed me a flyer on the "Quad 44" a futuristic catamaran, with electric drives, all solar power, and looks like a spaceship. It may be too futuristic for me, but if you like the Neel 45 trimaran, you would probably like this:

http://quadmarine.com/index.html

Something interesting to see anyway, if it ever is built.
Looks like vaporware
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Old 13-10-2016, 22:43   #37
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

My wife and I also spent the week in Annapolis trying to give ourselves some direction in terms of Cats. Some mixed feelings. We walked all of the cats, and a number of them multiple times.

One of the things that stood out to us was the crappy materials and workmanship on a number of the vessels. I would think that the Manufacturers would be trying to show off their best work......If they did at this show, we are going to be a bit disappointed....

Bali - Yes it smelled like an outhouse....I can get over that. As I walked down into the starboard hull the top step going down had already been kicked loose. Loved the forward bathroom door on the port hull.....direct interference stop with the walk thru. Either it was constructed so out of skew it could not open properly, or was designed so poorly that no one thought about the angle of the door opening?......

Leopard 45 - Liked the layout. Wife really liked the forward walk thru. I'm not a fan of that feature in heavy weather though I have nothing other than my gut when it comes to that. What should be criminal is their use of cheep crap hinges on the front storage areas that were already bending and rusting.....You've come this far, a little extra for a quality hinge? On the plus, we spoke with Leopard about whether we were allowed to have our own surveyor survey the vessel prior to final payment/handover. No problem, we were told we could spend as much time as was needed, as long as we were paying for the surveyor.

Lagoon 42 - One of our favorites going into the show. Storage sucks compared to the 450, and the Helia. Open cubby-holes make for a great day sailor. We really did like the layout. Fit and finish was poor in a couple of areas. Countersunk screws on the exterior roof panels were poorly done and used sealer to fill in/mask the poor work. Liberal use of putty sealer to try and stop leaks....... Asked about a survey prior to acceptance.....the arrogance and idea that we would even question the build quality was hard to understand. We could get 1.5 hours max, with no photo's.

Helia 44 - Probably our favorite so far. We will be spending 2 weeks in the Abacos in June to get a better feeling for this. Layout is nice. Vessel seems a bit better laid out. Interior fit and finish was ok with some areas that needed attention. For example, opened a cabinet in a starboard hull and here is where they started the cut with the holesaw, realized it was in the wrong location and moved it over. A little filler might have taken 30 seconds....

If budget was not an issue, the nicest vessel fit and finish wise in our opinion was the Xquisite X5. The amount of storage space was simply amazing. The wife really liked the "walk in alcove" as close as she is going to get to a walk in closet. Always nice to dream.......

Great show and a great location. Lots to digest..........
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Old 14-10-2016, 01:48   #38
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

Like SV Neko I am struck by the amount of discussion in this thread on cupboards and the paucity of discussion on seaworthiness and sailing capability
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Old 14-10-2016, 08:24   #39
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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Like SV Neko I am struck by the amount of discussion in this thread on cupboards and the paucity of discussion on seaworthiness and sailing capability
Not everyone is trying to cross an ocean. Though considering that a large percentage of the high volume cats from Lagoon, FP, and from SA do cross the ocean just to get delivered, most take it as a general premise that these are fairly seaworthy.

Plus the amount of stories and on youtube of these cats being used in long distance cruising if not circumnavigating makes you believe that they are seaworthy and can sail.

How do you look at a boat at a boat show and determine how it will sail? You can't. But you can comment on it's cabinets. Then you can go to the forums here and ask if anyone has sailed it and what their thoughts are.
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Old 14-10-2016, 09:54   #40
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

As a person that is looking for live aboard life style, I am more interested in living space and quality first, then sailing ability. I want something that can sailing adequately at least but I don't need to go 20 knots, but would like to be able to sail in winds of 5 knots. Now I have no sailing experience to speak of at this junction but I plan to be there at some point before I purchase.

I am looking at these boats with the idea of 4-5 years down the road and purchase them used at a price I can afford (hopefully at that time ;-) ).

I would love to get others input about these condo cats sailing ability as I have no experience with them other than some youtube video's and shows.

I would sacrifice some living comfort for some better sailing ability to find a good sweat spot for me. If I was looking at a weekend use or just a few weeks a year use I would be interested in the sailing side then the comfort side. This is where the seawind would win out more. Or at least that is my first impression with no experience.

ps. I hold the right to change my mind once I get some sailing experience and charter some more. ;-) this message was not approved by Hillary or Trump. (as far as I know)
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Old 14-10-2016, 10:30   #41
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

[QUOTE=Breenme;2235095]As a person that is looking for live aboard life style, I am more interested in living space and quality first, then sailing ability. I want something that can sailing adequately at least but I don't need to go 20 knots, but would like to be able to sail in winds of 5 knots. Now I have no sailing experience to speak of at this junction but I plan to be there at some point before I purchase.

I am looking at these boats with the idea of 4-5 years down the road and purchase them used at a price I can afford (hopefully at that time ;-) ).

QUOTE]

If you really want the ability to sail in 5 kts, consider a cat with more emphasis on sailing e.g. Switch, Schionning, Chris White, Outremer, Lerouge, and _keep it light_. There are examples of most of these on the used market at decent prices. We live aboard ours, and it will sail in 5 kts and less. I will add that patience is a virtue

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Old 14-10-2016, 10:48   #42
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

I presently own a 3-Cabin Lagoon 500 located in St Thomas. It has virtually every option Lagoon offered ... Washer-Dryer, Dishwasher, A/C, Watermaker, IceMaker, Dyneema Square Topped Mainsail, Satellite TV.

This was one of the last 500s built.

A flying bridge and foredeck cockpit make Lagoons a great choice. I also have owned and liked Fountain Pajots.

New boats are great. Keep in mind that you can spend another $20-30K on a tender, life raft, emergency equipment, lines, fenders, bedding, galley stuff.

If you are interested call me at 513-325-2279 or cettel@me.com

I am planning on purchasing a 560.
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Old 14-10-2016, 12:53   #43
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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Not everyone is trying to cross an ocean. Though considering that a large percentage of the high volume cats from Lagoon, FP, and from SA do cross the ocean just to get delivered, most take it as a general premise that these are fairly seaworthy.

Plus the amount of stories and on youtube of these cats being used in long distance cruising if not circumnavigating makes you believe that they are seaworthy and can sail.

How do you look at a boat at a boat show and determine how it will sail? You can't. But you can comment on it's cabinets. Then you can go to the forums here and ask if anyone has sailed it and what their thoughts are.
No, no, no, no. First, most cats in this size range are not delivered on their bottoms anymore. Even Leopard which is famous for it, now uses ships to deliver boats. But anyway, the fact that a cat survives one ocean crossing should not be taken for proof that it will survive anything the ocean can throw at it. That being said, I think most production boats these days are robust enough for a low latitude circumnavigation. But seaworthiness contemplates more than just staying in one piece when the going gets rough. It also includes the ability to sail out of harms way, handling rough seas in a way that does not absolutely knacker the crew, sufficient handholds, rounded corners, fiddles, etc. and, in the case of cats, enough bridgedeck clearance not to make the occupants seem feel like peas in a whistle. Too many new cats fail on these counts.

And, how can you tell how well a boat will sail by looking at it? If you can't do this to a degree, you need to go back to school on cats. Narrow hulls, large rigs, big tramps, daggerboards, high aspect rudders, and on and on. The last place to get info on this is on this forum, as you will hear here from owners of all designs that their cats sail at 1.5x wind speed and never pound.

But if it doesn't matter to you, its no foul. Personally, I think sailors should take advantage of the performance that the cat platform makes available, and its for a small sacrifice in space and stuff. But to each his own and if you are out there, then your a brother of mine.
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Old 14-10-2016, 13:10   #44
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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enough bridgedeck clearance not to make the occupants seem feel like peas in a whistle.
I almost had tears in my eyes on that one. ROFL

The quality of the details like cabinets and wiring often reflect the manufacturers overall care in construction. Some of the boats ( both cat and big name mass prod monos ) were so loaded with caulk I'd never want to be on one in the rain.
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Old 14-10-2016, 15:52   #45
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Re: Annapolis Sailboat show thoughts

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None of the boats (except the Gunboat!) will outsail the Outremer. Wish I could afford one.
I am not so sure..I've sailed O 51 extensively and bought now a Catana 47 Carbon infusion. I haven't sailed enough yet the Catana but watch this..
Itwould seem as fast as O 51..



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