Angle of Vanishing Stability

[Joli]

After reading the article it sounds like Dancing Emu just drove it under. To much sail when the bows dug and it was game, set, match.

Our philosphy when racing: deck under was ok but when the pulpit was under it was time to back off. And we also tended to keep up a bit more so we would not stuff the bow as heavily and have an escape route. For the Schock 35 this was about 40 to 45 knots with the kite and speed was ussually around 18.

Gotta know how much you can push your boat.

[fastcat435]

Reefing rather sooner than later is good seamanship , I have never seen a cat that capsized at a angle of 15 Degrees . That is pure nonsense. I have attached the reefing scheme of the FastCat 435 a lightweight perfomance oriented cruising catamaran STABILITY DATA For the boat: African Seawing Prepared by: Gideon Goudsmit Date: 30-08-2007 Method used; sailing trials Minimum operating mass = 7785 Kg = Loaded displacement mass = 13205 Kg =
Sail set
Maximum Beaufort force advised for each sail combination
Minimum operating condition
Loaded displacement condition opt.)
Main sail + light weather jib
18 knots force 4
11 tons
Main sail + working genoa
23 knots force 5
11 tons
Main sail + working jib
26 knots force 5
11 tons
First reef in main sail + small jib
28 knots force 6
11 tons
Second reef in main sail + storm jib
31 knots force 7
11 tons
Small jib
45 knots force 8
11 tons
Storm jib
55 knots force 10
11 tons

[Sailormann]

I haveto wonder why you took the time to post this . Surely you're not really that stupid are you?

Stupid ? No. Quite the contrary. Must admit that I am not fond of those who take themselves too seriously or are unnecessarily abrasive though.

FYI, we were tacking with just the main while waiting for a race to start. I asked the skipper if the boat would tack just as easily (and it was as easy as turning the wheel) under the headsail alone, so next day we did some headsail only tacks.

Perhaps to a monohull sailor that sounds like a wonderful craft. In reality it is just a well designed 38 foot cruising catamaran. It was quite wonderful the way we were able to cruise past "Sitka", (a Sydney-Hobart winner, at around 80 feet LOA with a mast around 125 feet tall, and sails as big as a soccer field) sitting drinking coffee, while they seemed to be struggling to control her in the gusts. But that's multihull sailing.

I think it's absolutely wonderful that you were able to turn the boat like that. Seriously, I couldn't be more pleased. But that doesn't make me think that it's a wonderful boat.

Most cruisers, including monohull sailors, tuck in an extra reef at nightfall. Cruising sailors wouldn't normally run under a spinnaker at night. I certainly wouldn't consider it. The "clear air" referred to may not have been - a squall can be hard to see in the dark. (I don't know how much moon there was that night) At 2 am crews are not at their most alert. (In fact they are at their LEAST alert) So they might have simply missed seeing it.

Uhmm - beg to differ, but it's not important.

Anyway - in the end - you have your opinions - I have mine. I'm sure that you've developed yours over many years of sailing different boats in varying conditions, and have settled on things that work for you. Ditto here.

But you need to remind yourself that in the end, they are still just opinions. There is no such thing as a universal, perfect boat. There is no absolutely correct way to navigate, steer, trim, maintain, or do hundreds of other marine-related things.

Matter of fact, about the only sure thing in the whole boating unverse is that if you throw some bait over the side (of your monohull) some multihull maniac is going to waste no time rising to it.

Fair winds !

[Factor]

Why oh why, sailorman, do you feel the need to "do a joli" and create arguments for the sake of it?

[Joli]

Originally Posted by seadog3315

I linked to these reports to bring us back to the discussion on how we can sail cats safer, better and to point out that cats do capsize, and what we as newbies, either to sailing or to cats, should be doing, more along the line of Auspicious' post. Linking to a racing report may not have been a good idea, I apologise for that.

John

Hahaha John, you'll learn not to ask probing questions. Don't let the board reality get in the way of understanding, take what is said here with a grain of salt. Maybe read some articles by Melvin and Morelli, Schionning, or White.

[Sailormann]

Why oh why, sailorman, do you feel the need to "do a joli" and create arguments for the sake of it?

...childish I realise but occasionally I get bored ... what the heck ... no harm done ...

[Wayward Wind]

Joli: I don't mind the slanging matches and colourful language. After all, this is what makes the marine environment such a . . . well, colourful place. As long as you guys drop crumbs of information relating to actual sailing, I, and other, ahem, Juniors, in my situation, can only be the better for it. At the end of the day, it is up to us to go out and practise what have been said here, and we will use what works for us. Thank you, guys, for joining in.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Sailormann

Stupid ? No. Quite the contrary. Must admit that I am not fond of those who take themselves too seriously or are unnecessarily abrasive though.

I think it's absolutely wonderful that you were able to turn the boat like that. Seriously, I couldn't be more pleased. But that doesn't make me think that it's a wonderful boat.

But apparently you do. You said " Hmm - a mutlihull (sic) that changed course regardless of what you did - that sounds like a wonderful craft indeed."

Maybe you can't remember as far back as a couple of days.

Re "rising to the bait" - I just don't want to see someone, who has asked genuine questions about catamarans, recieving totally false information, which is really just uninformed and biased opinion, being presented as fact.

Perhaps I should wander over into the monohull forum and post absolute uninformed garbage about monohull boats and sailors, and see how many "maniacs" rise to the bait. I'm quite sure I won't be short of takers.

At least I would be able to post from a position of some degree of knowledge. I have actually owned and sailed a cruising monohull.

But why would I waste my time and theirs?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Joli

Maybe read some articles by Melvin and Morelli, Schionning, or White.

Totally agree. Chris White's "The Cruising Multihull" is an excellent read. It truly puts the pro's and cons 's of multihulls and monohulls in perspective.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by Joli

Maybe read some articles by Melvin and Morelli, Schionning, or White.

Which Schionning?

[Joli]

Jeff and maybe an article or two from Shuttleworth.

Just remember they are in business to sell product.

Originally Posted by Factor

Which Schionning?

[delmarrey]

Can we tone it down a bit. A good debate is OK but when the name calling and insults (personal attacks) start up, that's too far. This thread can disappear.

I know it's hard to not be humored by a crash but it's also a tragedy (loss).

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by seadog3315

Sorry Rick. I guess I should have ended with the question, "what would you have done had you been in the skipper's position, and you are cruising, not racing?"

Here are excerpts of Richard's report: "Everything was going well and giving no reason for concern. The wind increasing to 18/25kts as expected and we changed from spinnaker to screecher several times to suit the wind direction. At no stage were we concerned . . . We approached Indian Head under screecher and full main with speeds of 14-16kts. On rounding the headland the course change resulted in losing speed to eight to nine knots so we put the spinnaker up again and speed increased; back to 14-16 . . . At about 0215 the stern was picked up by a very steep wave and I presume a sudden wind gust (out of clear air – not a squall) our speed increased but the bows did not rise. The spinnaker sheet was released to no avail and the vessel pitch poled."

Reasonably, I would have studied the weather, and probably not gone out. But if I were doing a passage, and have to ride this out, what should I be doing?

I linked to these reports to bring us back to the discussion on how we can sail cats safer, better and to point out that cats do capsize, and what we as newbies, either to sailing or to cats, should be doing, more along the line of Auspicious' post. Linking to a racing report may not have been a good idea, I apologise for that.

John

As a cruising sailor I probably wouldn't be running under full main and spinnaker in 18 - 25 knots of wind. Absolutely not at night. I can imagine what kind of response I would get if I said to my wife, at 1 am "we've slowed down to 8 or 9 knots, so let's get the spinnaker up dear" In fact at 8 - 9 knots at night I would be looking at slowing down, not going faster. Too easy to hit a whale or something in the dark.

It appears from reports from other boats that there certainly were squalls in the area. They must have not seen the one that hit them - another reason to be more conservative in the dark.

The way you would sail in a race is quite different to how most people would sail cruising. (There may be the odd few who sail push just as hard, racing or not. Odd being the operative word)

It's a bit like driving a car - in a race you push the limits constantly - you take risks, and sometimes it goes wrong. Off the racetrack you don't go anywhere near as close to the edge. I've been driving on the road for nearly 30 years, never had an accident. By contrast, Micheal Schumaker has had several accidents over far fewer years. No doubt whatsoever he is a better driver than me, but he races, I don't. That's the difference.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by seadog3315

Then about 7:00 am this morning an EPIRB was deployed, in the Lady Elliott, Lady Musgrave area . . . New Caledonian Philippe Coste and his five crew were found sitting on the hulls of the capsized Rogntudjuuu . . .

more on

Sail World - Powerboat-World: Sail and sailing, cruising, boating news

Note how high Rogntudjuuu floats, the hull on the left of pic is clear of the water, so bouyancy in beams and pod/cabin was enough for her to float high (unlike a capsized mono)

Dave

[Therapy]

Originally Posted by cat man do

Note how high Rogntudjuuu floats, the hull on the left of pic is clear of the water, so bouyancy in beams and pod/cabin was enough for her to float high (unlike a capsized mono)

Dave

You know, looking at that made me think.

If one had two hinges on the mast in the right place and a water holding bag and a hand pump then a cat could be righted by the crew in a seaway.

Actually I just thought of another easier way.

Hummmmm.