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Old 14-08-2014, 09:30   #91
pbr
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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pbr, I understood the point you were attempting to make. However, even with a sea anchor deployed, the rudders would not remain stationary: not all waves will come from directly ahead and, in addition, the boat will yaw. While the motion with a sea anchor deployed may have made their efforts at making repairs more comfortable, with one of the rudders bent on the stock at an angle and ther other spinning on its stock, they would have still been unable to effect repairs sufficient to enable them to continue underway.

Brad
Frankly the fact that they could not make a repair on the one rudder is all hind sight. I would suggest before you pass opinion you lie a hull in a catamaran in large seas for some time and then try it with a sea anchor deployed. The difference in the boats motion and your ability to work on any kind of problem is huge.
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Old 14-08-2014, 11:00   #92
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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I took this as part owner of a company that produced sea anchors, not actually as a builder of the cats. PBR, which cat did you build?

Good question Smack.
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Old 14-08-2014, 12:16   #93
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

PBR, I have already advocated for the benefits of having a sea-anchor on a catamaran generally and of the improved comfort they would have had if they had been lying to one. Nevertheless, it is hardly 'hindsight' for me to suggest that they were unable to repair their rudders. That is what the captain and crew said.

In that regard, please note that at no point did they suggest that the 'conditions' made them incapable of effecting repairs. Rather, the one rudder was inspected below the water and found to be spinning on the rudder stock. The other rudder was found to have a bent stock and was apparently stuck at an angle. While they were able to re-attach the rudder head to the rudder stock, they were unable with the equipment they had on board to get the bent rudder freed-up and functional. Indeed, if one looks at the photographs, at the time the rudders were inspected it would appear that the sea state had improved dramatically.

This is not hindsight. The attempts at repairing the rudders, the underwater inspection and the attempts at fore-reaching to a safe destination were all made prior to the decision to abandon ship. With a worsening forecast I believe that they made the correct decision and that the presence of a sea-anchor would not have made repairs viable - it would have only increased their comfort until their inevitable rescue. To suggst otherwise, without having been there, is pure speculation.


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Old 14-08-2014, 12:25   #94
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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The reverse wave piercing bow for a racing cat can offer reduced drag and pitching at higher speeds. I think in a cruising cat it can allow more spray and water on deck than desired. The reverse bow design when taken to the extreme can make anchoring a bit more problematic as well.

I have recently put a new design concept out with the Manta 46 that incorporates what I call a modified Z wave piercing bow that gives you the low wave making drag and extended waterline of a wave piercer but with the flair, reserve buoyancy, and profile of a conventional bow above the water line to reduce water and spray on deck .
Thanks for the explanation - but it still leaves an important question in regards to the A42 incident (and potentially others in similar conditions). One of important points/accusations that Gregor brought up was that Hank/Charlie were "going too slowly", leading to the boat being pitched backward instead of powering past/through the wave.

However, if you have wave-piercing bows (WPB), wouldn't more speed simply have meant a far greater impact with the wave face (as Hank mentioned)? Getting pushed backward like they reported doesn't sound as much like reverse-surfing as it does a violent impact of the wave at the bridgedeck because the hulls didn't come up quickly enough. (Just my wondering here.)

Again, WPB look really cool, I love 'em - and they made a lot of sense to me on the AC boats (very small seas), and are now even showing up in the VOR boats (very big seas). It's all about speed. But on a cruising cat heading into 15' seas? What are the advantages in conditions like that?
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Old 14-08-2014, 12:58   #95
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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Thanks for the explanation - but it still leaves an important question in regards to the A42 incident (and potentially others in similar conditions). One of important points/accusations that Gregor brought up was that Hank/Charlie were "going too slowly", leading to the boat being pitched backward instead of powering past/through the wave.

However, if you have wave-piercing bows (WPB), wouldn't more speed simply have meant a far greater impact with the wave face (as Hank mentioned)? Getting pushed backward like they reported doesn't sound as much like reverse-surfing as it does a violent impact of the wave at the bridgedeck because the hulls didn't come up quickly enough. (Just my wondering here.)

Again, WPB look really cool, I love 'em - and they made a lot of sense to me on the AC boats (very small seas), and are now even showing up in the VOR boats (very big seas). It's all about speed. But on a cruising cat heading into 15' seas? What are the advantages in conditions like that?
I don't think the bow design caused the problem. However not having rudder stops installed, relying on set screws, and a rudder shaft of too small diameter would.
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Old 14-08-2014, 13:05   #96
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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I don't think the bow design caused the problem. However not having rudder stops installed, relying on set screws, and a rudder shaft of too small diameter would.
Do you agree with Gregor then that their slow speed caused the problem? That sailing faster into large seas is necessary with a boat like this?
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Old 14-08-2014, 13:43   #97
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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Do you agree with Gregor then that their slow speed caused the problem? That sailing faster into large seas is necessary with a boat like this?
No I don't, clearly the rudder system was inadequate and should have been able to handle what happened to the boat.
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Old 14-08-2014, 14:34   #98
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

Southern Star, It would be much better if anyone with questions about modifications on the Alpha 42 build address them directly to the builder, Marc Anasis. He's a straight forward guy and will be happy to answer all questions. Let me just say, after seeing the construction as of a month or so ago, we're are going to have one heck of a solid cat.
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Old 14-08-2014, 17:03   #99
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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...
Again, WPB look really cool, I love 'em - and they made a lot of sense to me on the AC boats (very small seas), and are now even showing up in the VOR boats (very big seas). It's all about speed. But on a cruising cat heading into 15' seas? What are the advantages in conditions like that?
Seems the VOR boats only have wave piercing bows because they look cool:
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Creating an identity The bow has a noticeably reversed stem shape. A lot of styling attention was concentrated on the bow area because it is the most photographed part of the boat by a huge margin. We were under a lot of pressure to produce a boat that was relevant in its image and instantly recognizable. This is one area where a statement has to be made. The fastest boats in the world are multihulls, and they all have wave-piercing bows. The VO65 obviously canít be a real wave-piercing boat because of the hull volume it possesses for its length and beam, but we can create the image of that type of boat. We feel the bow profile and cabin do create a very specific identity for the boat.
From: Design in the Volvo Ocean Race: Playing With Power | Sailing World
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Old 14-08-2014, 19:50   #100
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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Seems the VOR boats only have wave piercing bows because they look cool:


From: Design in the Volvo Ocean Race: Playing With Power | Sailing World
Now that's interesting. I'd not seen that.
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Old 15-08-2014, 06:37   #101
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

On the case of a rudder locked at an angle preventing steerage, it seems like removing the rudder from the top and either getting it on board with a rope tied to it or dropping it, would solve the problem.


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Old 15-08-2014, 09:14   #102
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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On the case of a rudder locked at an angle preventing steerage, it seems like removing the rudder from the top and either getting it on board with a rope tied to it or dropping it, would solve the problem.


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Easier said than done. They tried.

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Old 15-08-2014, 09:33   #103
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

Cruisingkrol, thanks for the response. It's obviously wise not to create a potential dispute with the builder in case you mis-state some technical aspect ot the construction. I strongly suspect, however, that you have satisfied yourself about the steering system, windows and jib sheet leads on your own boat.

I really like the design of the Alpha 42 and hope that they can succeed in a market that has seen the disappearance of most North American builders over the last decade. Speaking of which, pbr it is great to have you on this site. Look forward to hearing about your progress on the new Mantas; lets face it, your company had a well-deserved reputation for producing quality boats at a reasonable price and the resale value to this day stands as a testimonial to the same.

Brad
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Old 15-08-2014, 15:43   #104
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

Southern Star, thanks. We are pretty confident that the modifications to those systems and others are way more than sufficient. Folks ought to give Alpha 42 another look, so if there's anybody in the Patchogue area, please go visit the yard and report your observations.
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Old 15-08-2014, 19:00   #105
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Re: Alpha 42 Designer's Rebuttal

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Southern Star, thanks. We are pretty confident that the modifications to those systems and others are way more than sufficient. Folks ought to give Alpha 42 another look, so if there's anybody in the Patchogue area, please go visit the yard and report your observations.
That is great news Krol. Like Brad, I am hoping that boat building can sustain in the US. As much as I m sure Alpha and Gregor have regrets about certain issues, I am sure they will be determined to build it better from here on out. Sincerely hope that the lessons from build 1 translate in to an overall improvement

Curious question, on your build, did you modify the helm area at all?

Excited to hear and see America building again
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