Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 15-11-2009, 16:53   #16
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
kiapa, thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. They sounds right on.

I saw your website, gorgeous boat. I really like the aft entry to the head.
__________________

__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2009, 17:02   #17
Moderator Emeritus
 
Pblais's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Hayes, VA
Boat: Gozzard 36
Posts: 8,700
Images: 15
Send a message via Skype™ to Pblais
Quote:
I always hate doing anything my dad says not to do.
He is right. Sorry. On a boat that large built in A/C is expected. You never need to use it as there is no non generator solution to make it work unless you carry a really long shore power cord. Diesel based heat is efficient and effective. You could size one or two units. For AC you would be better off with two or more.

You could also just forget adding any A/C and take the hit on the sale.
__________________

__________________
Paul Blais
s/v Bright Eyes Gozzard 36
37 15.7 N 76 28.9 W
Pblais is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2009, 17:28   #18
Registered User

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,062
If you look into Hydronic heating, don't forget to look closely at the amp draw numbers. If you do you'll decide on Espar airtronic (not hydronic). Hydronic heaters also need water circulating pumps, so factor that in and hot air heating looks even better.
__________________
SailFastTri is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-11-2009, 17:58   #19
cruiser

Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 205
Air Conditioning - Go Big, Small or Skip it Altogether?

If you choose to add a/c too small is better than too big!
The reason is a big unit will cool the space before it has time to reduce the humidity and you end up with a space great for growing mushrooms but not for people. Smaller may not get the sensible temperature real low but it does a wonderful job of drying out the space and it's contents.

In our case I do HVAC/R for a living and I will build a little bitty unit for the master's berth that can run off the solar system and provide a quiet, comfortable place to rest or relax. The v berth and saloon will not get a/c therefore encouraging guests not to overstay their welcome
__________________
Noname1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2009, 05:18   #20
Registered User

Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,313
Almost any boat with good canvas and multiple hatches will not require air when swinging on the hook. At the dock it is a very different situation. I would think that if you're in build you may as well put the air in. The cost is not very high and now is the time to do it. I would also build systems to add the gen set, the genset is much lighter then the battery bank and inverter required to run the air.

I know, you want to keep the boat light for perrformance but....... you also want to be able to resell the boat and you want the boat to be comfortable at the dock. How do you sell a million dollar boat without air or genset?
__________________
Joli is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2009, 12:54   #21
Registered User
 
Steve_C's Avatar

Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: San Antonio, Texas
Boat: Soon to be a Cat
Posts: 212
I agree that I would at least do the AC and Gen Prep to leave my options open. The toughest thing to do after the build is ducting, wiring and appropriate space for the units. prep now will be relatively easy and not cost you much in terms of weight. The empty spaces can even be used for other things, but at least they are there if you need them.

Where are you having the boat built? I would love to see some build pictures. That boat is certainly one of my dream boats.

Let me know if you need some deck hands to help break it in
__________________
Steve_C is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2009, 13:21   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Remember with reverse cycle from the AC you need water temp at least 10 deg C, and preferably 12-14 deg.

The longer you stay in the hot temps, the colder winters seem further south (or north) and so the more important becomes the heating.

I think a single 16K BTU AC plus decent heating added to the revese cycle would enable liveaboard in the final location for my final plan.
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16-11-2009, 14:04   #23
Marine Service Provider

Join Date: Oct 2007
Boat: Endeavour 42CC
Posts: 1,182
I'll throw in that doing the wiring, ducting and plumbing for A/C and genset is the least you should do. Much easier to add the A/C and/or the genset if this is already done. if you never add these units, it will still make selling easier to the buyer that plans on adding the units. Dropping in an A/C isn't nearly as hard as running all the plumbing, ducting & wiring.
__________________
gettinthere is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17-11-2009, 12:43   #24
Registered User
 
Jeannius's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Worcester U.K.
Boat: Privilege 435 Now Sold
Posts: 840
After my previous post recommending fitting a/c to aid resale, I then decided -as others have- that the best thing as you are undecided is just to have a system designed, and the plumbing, ducting and electrical wiring installed at build time. (I did that for a watermaker and am very glad I did). That way it'll be easy to do a professional installation job in the future.

Personally I would still install the whole system as the benefits of being able to use the a/c to dry out the boat are immense.
__________________
Mike

http://sailingjeannius.blogspot.com
Jeannius is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2009, 07:48   #25
Registered User
 
YOGAO's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: St. Augustine, FL - an unwilling C.L.O.D.
Boat: Maine Cat 41
Posts: 519
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailFastTri View Post
If you look into Hydronic heating, don't forget to look closely at the amp draw numbers. If you do you'll decide on Espar airtronic (not hydronic). Hydronic heaters also need water circulating pumps, so factor that in and hot air heating looks even better.
Amp draw is just one factor to consider.

Air heating will require larger ducting; will lose more heat over distance traveled (which means you may need to run it longer to attain the same amount of comfort). Our hydronic heating blows out HOT air (like me!). Also, the last time I looked, air doesn't retain heat like water does, so if the heat is cycling on/off to warm the boat in colder climes, it may take more time to re-heat the air than the water.

Hydronic heating can also heat your hot water; if led properly it can heat the engine compartment freeing you from winterizing the engine; a heated engine compartment can make it easier to start the engine when it is cold.

Fair Winds,
Mike
__________________
YOGAO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2009, 08:12   #26
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
Thanks for all the feedback. This is yet another one of those major design trade-offs where their is no right answer. What I've tentatively decided to do:

Install the 2 Espar diesel heaters. The first 5 hulls at Alwoplast did this so it must be desirable for many. I can tell you when I looked at this setup at the yard, I found it very slick. The heat is almost instantaneous and can be used without any real electrical power. Those cold mornings in the North Atlantic or Cape Horn will be quite toasty not to mention the South Pacific.

Install 1 big air conditioning unit. I liked the idea of pre-wiring but finally came to the conclusion that if it was really a show stopper for a future owner they could just take the 90 lb compressor out. I think I could possible get that weight back by using high tech batteries. A 18,500btu flagship unit is the likely unit. It will probably not be enough to cool the boat much during the heat of the day in 90 degree temp with 90% humidity but should allow a comfortable nights sleep. No generator so it's only for use on shore power.

The only question I have left is the US/Euro power compatibility of the aircon. I would love to be able to have a battery charger 24/100 power and inverter (3000) so that I could accept any type of power and still run the aircon from anywhere in the world. I just don't know if that will over tax the battery charger and/or inverter.

Here's a progress picture. http://www.themillerclan.com/blog/wp.../a-57vi-59.jpg
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24-11-2009, 15:05   #27
Registered User
 
Jeannius's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Worcester U.K.
Boat: Privilege 435 Now Sold
Posts: 840
Agility.... My boat is wired for 110v but I've installed a European shore power connector and a 220-240 to 110-120 transformer (really cheap) and run my air con off that. Just make sure the air con you buy will accept 50Hz as well as 60Hz.
__________________
Mike

http://sailingjeannius.blogspot.com
Jeannius is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2009, 09:15   #28
Registered User

Join Date: Sep 2009
Boat: M&M 52, Kiapa
Posts: 59
agility,
i'm surprised you are taking this boat the direction you are. for me, boat-systems-use should be in concert. i thought the atlantic 57 was an updated stretch version of the atlantic 55 -- a 25K pound cat suitable for blue water cruising and manageable by a short-handed crew (think owner). for me, that "spells" keep things light and simple... while ensuring critical needs are met. i'd contrast that with another very high performance bluewater boat, the gunboat 66. while only a few feet longer than yours, this boat has enormous volume, and hence can carry quite a load. it is also a boat that is designed to be run by cap't & crew, with owners or guests "popping" in for vacation. for this boat and this use, despite the light weight, popping on air con and other systems is the "norm".

all this stuff adds up weight-wise, and it all adds so materially to the complexity. now that you've added aircon, you're working on ensuring you can run it in europe. you can get a great transformer for about 100 lbs. then you get to throw in wire, cords, connectors, mounting brackets, etc, etc. bit of a snowball to me... one of the biggest positive surprises for us on our cat, is the simple luxury of living almost exclusively off solar panels. if you avoid the big draw AC stuff, you can achieve this easily... and not want for creature comforts. i'd still recommend a dozen "hella fans" for 'air con'. for the odd time you're at the dock and the sun is low in the sky, add a small lightweight multi-system battery charger (mastervolt or dolphin make 'em that will run from 90-270 volts and 45-65 hertz). you can pick up a light extension cord at home depot that will suffice for shorepower cord... along with about 7 adapter plugs for the various countries you'll visit.

an irony for me, is that you're taking your 'heater system' -- in my opinion a critical system for liveaboard use -- in exactly the opposite direction ==> choosing forced air because its simple, inexpensive, and lower power. but you should consider mike's (of yogao) advise. hydronic heating is considerably more robust. it requires more power than forced air... but a unit that would heat your boat draws about 150 watts while running, and it doesn't run continuously. a 150 watt (occasional) draw doesn't even belong in the same thread as an 'air con' decision.

sounds like a great boat. good sailing!
__________________
kiapa is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2009, 15:56   #29
Registered User
 
Agility's Avatar

Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Colorado
Boat: Chris White A47 Mastfoil
Posts: 310
Images: 6
Thanks kiapa for reminding me of the slipery slope I continue to find myself on. I've brought my indecisiveness to the forum but the group has helped get my priorities straight. I got pretty wrapped around the axle on resale but what we want is what we should build.

No aircon and that's final.
__________________
Agility is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-11-2009, 16:38   #30
Registered User
 
Jeannius's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Worcester U.K.
Boat: Privilege 435 Now Sold
Posts: 840
You'll regret it.


I've been in the Caribbean for over a year now so am nicely acclimatised. But, I'm sitting here, under the magnificent Pitons in St Lucia and running the aircon for a couple of hours. There is nothing better after a hot sweaty day in the tropics than switching on the aircon and getting that humidity down.
__________________

__________________
Mike

http://sailingjeannius.blogspot.com
Jeannius is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
air conditioning

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Marine Air-Conditioning GordMay Construction, Maintenance & Refit 4 18-07-2013 12:10
AC vs DC for Air Conditioning, Watermaker Dockhead Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 26 23-07-2009 15:52
Air Conditioning? 42AFJ Plumbing Systems and Fixtures 17 21-11-2008 08:41
Air Conditioning Problem avazquez Construction, Maintenance & Refit 6 29-05-2007 14:02
Air Conditioning exposure General Sailing Forum 13 18-07-2004 18:50



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 02:17.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.