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Old 03-05-2013, 21:36   #31
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

I don;t think the owner of that new 90ft will ever be sitting in the weather in those conditions...
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Old 03-05-2013, 22:29   #32
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

There is a design difference between look-out position and helm position, however if you are sailing with only one person on watch, then I would prioritize ….

1)..Lookout Station…Best visibility looking forward while providing sunshade and weather safety.

2)..Helm Position (s): While easy to reach from preferred Look-out position, less important as a remote lead from AP with dodge function, will serve same purpose.

On large boats, wing stations are useful to monitor ‘rate of transfer’ (sideways) when docking, but on smaller than 80ft. not really needed.
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Old 04-05-2013, 05:17   #33
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Multihull View Post
Please note the 5X is 59 feet ? Not comparable to a 44 Nautitech. Not the 441 nor the 442. Although the 5X has standard only one steering wheel (like the 441). The tillers are optional at 13k euro ? And the second steering wheel is custom as it is not on the option list.

But the 5X was by far the nicest boat at the Grande Motte boat show a few weeks back.
If I can spare a million+ euro I will certainly join that gentleman with the 5X
There are 3 steering options for the 5X: add CF tillers, add second helm on port side, CF wheels. The steering feel at both wheel and tiller is one of the best features of the boat.

We tend not to use the tillers while on long passages - they are great for co-steering w/ the kids on a day sail. We do regularly use the seats while on watch though - a great spot to think about mainsail trim while on auto pilot.

We have tethers and attachment points and don't leave the regular helm at night to leave the cockpit without someone else up and monitoring you. I would definitely want a tether when on watch alone at an aft helm station.

The chart table location and visibility is important also. You'll want to be able to spend some time inside and be able to maintain a watch - especially if you sail somewhere cold. January in the Med it was tough to be outside for a whole 3 hour watch at night :-)
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:10   #34
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

I too, like Belizesailor wondered how Cruising World goes through the process of choosing boats for BOTY. Now I know, since I saw the process on the Nautitech 441 at the Annapolis show. First they board the boat at the show with a group of 5-6 people. We took about 10 minutes to go over the highlights of the model. After that, they had the boat to themselves to inspect. That process took almost an hour. After the show was over a seatrial was arranged back at the dock. On the seatrial they both sailed and motored and took sound levels throughout the boat. All the systems were tested as well. Here's what the boat did that day.


Not bad, 11 knots with 15 knots wind. I came away with the impression that they did as through a job as possible given the time restraints.
To answer djtopper, I just checked Nautitech's web site and both the 441 and 541 are there. These are the bulkhead mounted helm models.
To sum it up, every boat out there has pros and cons. Every boat is a compromise somewhere. You have to find what works for YOU and your requirements. What makes you HAPPY. Decide what you can live with and what you can live without. There's lots of choses out there, get on and try to sail as many as possible, then decide. And thanks guys for keeping the thread informative and not bashing. Now lets go sailing!!
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Old 04-05-2013, 09:53   #35
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

That is nice performance, but to be fair, the true wind speed was not 15kts. At that AWA, AWS and STW (assuming the knotmeter was calibrated), the true wind speed was around 25kt.

In general, I wouldn't let a helm position be a deal breaker on any boat. However, there are specific helms on boats that I would not have regardless. The older model Nautitech helms were dangerous and uncomfortable standing on the sugar scoop steps with only a tiny "bicycle" type seat for support with the necessity of climbing up and over the cockpit coaming and across the winches and jibsheets to reach the helms, and the Lagoon flybridge puts the boom so far up as to cause ridiculous routine sail work, and there are several bulkhead models that stare either straight into a blank wall or require one to squint through several layers of tinted, scratched perspex to see forward.

Other outboard helms, flybridges and bulkhead designs have pros and cons, but not deal breakers for me.

Mark
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Old 04-05-2013, 17:46   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Multihull View Post

Please note the 5X is 59 feet ? Not comparable to a 44 Nautitech. Not the 441 nor the 442. Although the 5X has standard only one steering wheel (like the 441). The tillers are optional at 13k euro ? And the second steering wheel is custom as it is not on the option list.

But the 5X was by far the nicest boat at the Grande Motte boat show a few weeks back.
If I can spare a million+ euro I will certainly join that gentleman with the 5X
We are NOT comparing catamarans in this item of the forum of course a 5X is different to a 440 of any brand , we are talking about positions of various helming station , my tillers will be part of the package ( no extra cost)
Cheers
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Old 04-05-2013, 18:24   #37
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

I am with Jedi on this one. I like the Chris White Forward cockpit design. I like the idea of being able to see what is in front of me, but I am also new to sailing so that may change in time.
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Old 12-05-2013, 17:46   #38
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Originally Posted by FLLCatsailor View Post
I don;t think the owner of that new 90ft will ever be sitting in the weather in those conditions...
Yup, the hired help will be so why would he care.
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Old 12-05-2013, 18:07   #39
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Originally Posted by colemj View Post
...

In general, I wouldn't let a helm position be a deal breaker on any boat. However, there are specific helms on boats that I would not have regardless. The older model Nautitech helms were dangerous and uncomfortable standing on the sugar scoop steps with only a tiny "bicycle" type seat for support with the necessity of climbing up and over the cockpit coaming and across the winches and jibsheets to reach the helms, and the Lagoon flybridge puts the boom so far up as to cause ridiculous routine sail work, and there are several bulkhead models that stare either straight into a blank wall or require one to squint through several layers of tinted, scratched perspex to see forward.

...
I agree the extreme aft position on the old Nautitec helms was a potential saftey issue...on the one we delivered the mounting hardware for the seat was disconcertingly small (and loose on that one).

I sometimes captain a Lagoon 50 in charter and while I like the fly bridge helm the high boom is inconvenient sometimes. For example, had a problem w the stack pack recently and I had to climb the mast to the boom and then walk inside the stack pack on the boom to get to the problem. No way to reach it just by standing on the deck house.

Have a friend w a Shuttleworth 65 which has a variation on the fly bridge that is quite well laid out.
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Old 18-08-2013, 23:09   #40
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I wouldn't trade my flybridge helm for anything. The view and sail control can't be beat.
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Old 19-08-2013, 08:05   #41
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cotemar View Post
This is a key statement!!!!

High performance cats = Aft helm positions. Need to see sails 99.9% of the time and always trimming sails.

Cruising cats = Protected behind bulkhead helm positions. Use Auto pilot 99.9% trim sails at leisure or maybe not at all
That might depend on your definition of high performance.
Visit chriswhitedesigns web site. Click on custom designs, scroll down to Voyager 45. We raced that boat three times during the years I was on her, and you can find the race results under the news section of Chris' website. Not bad for an aft cockpit bulkhead helm design with a rigid bimini.
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Old 19-08-2013, 22:48   #42
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Re: Aft Helm Position (Pros and Cons)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaptain Ken View Post
I wouldn't trade my flybridge helm for anything. The view and sail control can't be beat.
I think that my aft helm positions :


Pros


sightlines for dodging and seeing "ANYTHING" out there
sail trim observance
active sail control for ALL SAILS
ease of docking and assisting with docking,line handling
interacting with crew/guests in cockpit/salon area
steps to galley/Nav station
wheel/water feedback with direct mechanical linkage
dual helms for redundancy/safety


Cons


None that I can think of



beats it



Bob
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Old 19-08-2013, 22:50   #43
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Re: Aft helm position (pros and cons)?

Quote:
Originally Posted by FSMike View Post
That might depend on your definition of high performance.
Visit chriswhitedesigns web site. Click on custom designs, scroll down to Voyager 45. We raced that boat three times during the years I was on her, and you can find the race results under the news section of Chris' website. Not bad for an aft cockpit bulkhead helm design with a rigid bimini.

Hi Mike!

from one of your old Jaynes Marine cohorts!


Bob
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Old 20-08-2013, 08:16   #44
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Re: Aft Helm Position (Pros and Cons)?

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Originally Posted by REsCat View Post
I think that my aft helm positions :


Pros
ease of docking and assisting with docking,line handling
interacting with crew/guests in cockpit/salon area
steps to galley/Nav station
dual helms for redundancy/safety



Bob
Do you have engine controls on both sides for docking?

How do outboard helms increase interactions with crew/guests in cockpit and saloon vs. a cockpit helm? Particularly the saloon.

I don't understand the steps to galley and nav station - are those only accessible from the outboard helms?

If a cable breaks on one helm, is the other helm still usable?

Not arguing here - The 471 is one of my favorite boats - but I don't understand the above points.

Mark
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Old 20-08-2013, 09:40   #45
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Re: Aft Helm Position (Pros and Cons)?

Hi Mark

Please note that my pros are directed at Kaptain Ken(whom I quoted) and his L440 flybridge helm situation remarks and are not entirely applicable to cabin bulkhead/cockpit helms such as yours.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colemj View Post
Do you have engine controls on both sides for docking?


I don't but it would be relatively easy(and relatively inexpensive) to add a second set of Teleflex shifters and cables to the Port helm post to acheive that and some Catana owners have done this. I dock on my stbd side as my controls are there, shore power plugin etc, are there and there is no need to dock on the Port side unless a change of view , wash/work that side from the dock etc is needed. I have and do dock on my Port side from time to time and unless condions/logistics are iffy?... have no problems from the stbd controls helm.


Because I am fully on the stbd side stern controlling the boat(shifters), I can hand or throw a stern line, make fast, fend off, when docking and have unparalleled view and sightlines as the boat approaches the dock.


I have singlehanded and when docking with windy on/off conditions I can nose in and run up to the bow to toss a line to a person on the dock (hopefully), work against a short tether with engines and swing the stern in to toss a stern line. Done this effectively many times.


Flybridge helms cannot achieve the above logistics and probably many bulkhead/cockpit helms cant either.


How do outboard helms increase interactions with crew/guests in cockpit and saloon vs. a cockpit helm? Particularly the saloon.


I am pros against the flybridge helms for this.



I don't understand the steps to galley and nav station - are those only accessible from the outboard helms?


"steps" as in short distance to these areas compared to flybridge helms.



If a cable breaks on one helm, is the other helm still usable?


If both helms have controls...yes , If one helm is damaged for whatever reason, rendered unusable, I can still helm equally well from the other side for everything except engine controls (if my stbd helm is damaged) as I have direct mechanical linkage to the rudders.

An unlikely situation granted , but still a redundancy/safety feature and I have a safety emergency tiller arm(from the factory) that links thru an access plate on both sterns directly to the tops of the rudder posts and can steer the boat if both helms are toast.
(do other Cats have this feature I wonder?)


Not arguing here - The 471 is one of my favorite boats - but I don't understand the above points.

Mark

I hope I have clarified the above points? I totally agree with you as you have often said, that ALL boats are compromises and that outboard helms are far from perfect, but they work well for me and I would not want anything else.
I can readily counter any of the other negatives brought up previously by other posters in this thread.


I enjoy your blog and adventures, passed by you briefly in the Bahamas back in 2010(Raggeds,Salt pond area) and hope to cross paths with you and Michele again soon. I hope Charlie and Liz are faring well.


Bob
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