Advise on Catamaran for extended cruising

[Want2cruz]

Originally Posted by Bean Counter

You say you want to sail from California. Are you restricted in geography about where to buy the boat? Making shaft drive type a precondition will drastically reduce the number of cats to look at.

That is another issue I need to explore.

No I don't NEED to sail from Ca, but that is where I am and where we would best be able to provision, etc., the boat.

However, is there any place(s) where such boats tend to congregate to be placed up for sale due to those places being the "end-of-the-line" for the current owners who put the cruising behind them and return home to career etc., where the boats would be less expensive/more available/suited for such cruising?

[Want2cruz]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

Before you commit check RON GIVEN, multi hull yacht designer from NZ. His offshore cruising multihulls are legendary. No compromises. Fast offshore. I have done NZ to Noumea several times in one. 4 days. Comfort. Stability. Safety. Ron is now in his 80s. But his boats cruise on. I strongly recommend you carefully check his boats.

Will do.

[akprb]

That’s a great question!

S. Florida, New Zealand/Oz

As to the latter many (us included) do the Pacific ending up in Whangarei or on the Gold Coast.

Staring down the Indian Ocean many pull the plug and shipping her home is expensive to say the least.

Check out trademe.co.nz and multihullsolutions (Conrad Gair) to get an idea of boats down under.

Trinidad or down island also a good spot to snoop around. A lot of Caribbean dreams die down there.

Generally the tougher the logistics the better the deal.

[Want2cruz]

Originally Posted by akprb

That’s a great question!

S. Florida, New Zealand/Oz

As to the latter many (us included) do the Pacific ending up in Whangarei or on the Gold Coast.

Staring down the Indian Ocean many pull the plug and shipping her home is expensive to say the least.

Check out trademe.co.nz and multihullsolutions (Conrad Gair) to get an idea of boats down under.

Trinidad or down island also a good spot to snoop around. A lot of Caribbean dreams die down there.

Generally the tougher the logistics the better the deal.

Thanks. I'll check.

[Bean Counter]

There are a few boats in French Polynesia, some ex charter but in your price range, that is one big leg taken care of - nice place to take a holiday too. Also a place to charter to try cat sailing for a week, see what you do and don't like.

[Lance Reynolds]

[QUOTE=contrail;2562272]Disclaimer: I own a 1999 Leopard 45 (one of the "old", really strong, Leopards). I have had her for about fourteen years, living aboard the entire time. I run her in "captain only" charters and do lots of instruction. When not working, we do some cruising and have done open ocean passages as long as 1500 miles. She originally sailed, on her own bottom, from Cape Town to the BVI. In other words, she has worked, her entire life, and is not just someone's toy. And she has always been in great shape.

Working in the charter trade in the BVI, since 2005, has given me a look at the various brands, as the BVI is the catamaran capital of the world. Either I, or fellow captains, have sailed most. Friends have maintained them. To be sure, the majority of cats here are charter boats (nothing wrong with that), but we get our share of the less common cats. Heck, we sometimes even have a Gunboat class here in our regattas. Knysna, St. Francis, Prout, Antares, Gemini, Majestic Spirit, you name it, they are here or pass through. It is lots of fun actually seeing or sailing these boats, or against them, as opposed to just reading about them or seeing the pictures. The bottom line is that all of them are a compromise, and it's up to each owner to figure out the compromise they like. When I am helping students select boats on which to go cruising, I usually say, "choose the features you want, and the choice of boat will usually follow pretty normally". Unfortunately, I see many who choose the boat first, and then try to persuade themselves that the features are those they want; sometimes they are.

Budget is the first question to be answered. Next is who will be aboard. One person? Two? A family? What ages, sailing ability and athletic ability? Next is where you will keep and haul out your boat, unless you are cruising and constantly on the move. Not everywhere can accommodate every cat. Next will be your desired lifestyle...if you are daysailing for performance or racing, and not even living on your boat except for short periods, that drives you to a higher performance group. If you are planning on cruising, you will be spending most of your time (some use the figure 90%) of your time at anchor, on a mooring or at a dock. Liveaboard comfort becomes paramount, absolute performance secondary. But it's still nicer and safer to find a boat that sails well and runs up good passage times, without necessarily threatening any records. These considerations drive you to a different group than the first. Note that both groups will have well built and designed boats, and not so well built and designed boats. Also note that charter boats are designed with the idea of comfortably living aboard, although they tend more to being people carriers rather than "stuff" carriers, so some mods may need to be made here.

Safety is always paramount, and sometimes that can take some deep thinking.

The Big Three didn't get into those positions without providing good value, and they have lots and lots of experience acquired over the years.

IMHO, most cats sail much better than they are sailed, if you catch my meaning. And that colors the opinions of many who say "such and such a boat cannot do this or that or can do this or that." Might be true, and might not, particularly for you. Invest in knowledge and experience.

Most published reviews are window dressing. How many times have you read a review that starts with something like, "Unfortunately, the wind wasn't very cooperative on the day we sailed, but judging by her lines, she SHOULD be able......"? Test boats are always very lightly loaded, as well. And, of course, they are evaluated as they are at the time of the test. There is absolutely no track record of durability, ease of maintenance, handling in difficult situations, because the boat test is conducted on new boats at a particular moment in time. I can't tell you how many former "Boats of the Year", turn out to be maintenance nightmares or have other bad habits. Your best sources of information are 1) longtime owners with similar goals to your own and who know how to sail and do much of their own maintenance, and 2) yourself, particularly if you are experienced and capable. That's why you want to get onboard a prospective boat, sail it, and perhaps charter it.

Probably the most meaningless commentary is that from armchair sailors, or sailors who are simply passing on something they heard or read from someone else. There was recently a thread here in which one of the side discussions was between an owner and a vocal onlooker, both apparently knowledgeable. The onlooker was certain that the boat in question had certain dimensions, because he had read them online somewhere - and different online somewheres are notorious for publishing different specifications. The owner, who knew that his boat had been a prototype with somethings different from the production run, stated that his boat had different specs, which he, himself, the designer, and the builder all had empirically determined. No amount of discussion could convince the other fellow that the specs he quoted from the internet weren't the correct ones and that the owner's specs were wrong. All of which is to say, use your filters on anything you read. Or, garbage in, garbage out.

Some random thoughts on design or construction. Some boats are built of a solid laminate. These may withstand collisions the best and be most easily repaired. BUT, and it is a big but, they have to be built very heavily to have hulls as stiff as a cored hull can be. In this case, stiff is good. That weight takes a huge toll in other ways....power needed to move it, whether motor or sail, cost, lack of insulation,etc, etc. But, for the right application, it's appropriate. A cored hull is much lighter and stiffer, which brings with it many advantages, but can also be more fragile, in certain circumstances, such as some types of collisions (not all) or stranding on a reef. Most boats are at least partially cored, and others are almost completely cored. All are valid methods, depending upon the intended use.

When it comes to cores, there are many types, each of which is, again, a compromise. The reason that balsa is often used is that it is very strong for its weight, is less costly than most other options (and that's an advantage, not a condemnation), and - often overlooked - great resistance to compression. You don't see dented balsa cored hulls because of exactly this. Balsa cores tend not to deteriorate over time, either, unless they have gotten soaked, and therein lies their disadvantage and much of the marketing hype from other types of core makers. The answer lies in an earlier post....keep the integrity of the core. Try not to drill holes in it, and if you do, seal the holes, ideally with epoxy. If the core stays dry, and well built and MAINTAINED ones usually do, the boat will last a long, long time.

Foam cored hulls don't have the problem of the core rotting, if it gets wet, as would happen with balsa. You still don't want any type of core to get wet, but at least the foam core won't rot. On the other hand, many foams can crumble and disintigrate over time, and they have a lower resistance to compression than does balsa. You will definitely see dented foam cored boats, as a direct result of this.

A honeycomb core is very strong for it's weight, but the nature of honeycomb is that there is very little bonding surface, so the danger of the core delaminating from the outer skins is higher. They are also much more expensive.

And that is just a broad stroke at three core types. There are others.

Forward cockpits have been in use for some time now. Gunboats, Chris White Atlantic cats, Lagoons, Leopards, and others all have done this. I remember the first time I boarded a Leopard 44 and asked the owners if they had ever taken a wave into the forward cockpit, given that they had just crossed an ocean. They said they had, but to their surprise and delight, the cockpit had drained in well under a minute. That's quicker than a lot of monohulls will drain their aft cockpits, when flooded. So, the question is, really, how well is the drainage set up (huge, in the case of the L44 and many others), not simply whether the cockpit is vulnerable or not.

Of those boats with forward cockpits, some have doors, like the L44, the Gunboat and the Atlantics, and some don't. Where a door is concerned, it all comes down to engineering. Submarines have doors, after all, and so does the Space Station, and so do airplanes. My experience with the L44 is that the door seems (I have no engineering studies) very robust, as do the doors of the Gunboats and Atlantics. It is also true that many different cats, from many different builders, have had waves take out the huge windows in the salons. And THAT can spoil your day. Whether they are as well installed as the doors is a good question, but the result can be the same. So, I would want to be confident that any boat I bought had built their windows and doors well, and I imagine that most have done exactly that. But, in the end, windows and doors are a compromise as opposed to a windowless and doorless structure, but the compromise is worth it! Builders like to let in as much light as possible, because customers demand it. Every perforation in the structure, such as doors and windows, detracts from the strength and rigidity of that structure, such as the hulls or salons. The designer picks a ration that seems to meet the need. The customers choose the boats.......

Boat builders evolve their building techniques and methods over time. Some things get better, and others might not. I do believe that most manufacturers used to design their boats "from the outside in". In other words, a boat was designed as a boat, and accommodations were then designed to fit. Recently, they seem to be designed more "from the inside out", in other words, a boat is designed around the selling features of the interior. Better or worse? Could be either, depending on usage. And YOUR choice!

Flybridge: Most professional ocean sailors and delivery skippers hate 'em, and it's really hard to see under the jib. Most charterers absolutely love them, and so do lots of cruising sailors, who spend the time at anchor that the delivery skipper doesn't.

Forward cockpits and doors: Most experienced sailors instinctively frown and express doubt, at least initially. Most owner, charterers and cruisers like them for the breeze, the space separate from the aft cockpit, and for the ability to dock, stern to, and have some modicum of privacy up forward.

Ability to singlehand, which even couples do, most of the time. I truly singlehand. A lot! Builders claim a boat is easy to singlehand if all the lines are led to a cockpit, in close proximity. I say it's a lot easier to deal with spread out lines, at the mast even, than it is to dock, anchor, or moor a boat, singlehanded and without assistance. And that's a lot easier to do when freeboard is not too high and the helm is close to one side or the other, with easy access to the other side. Not much to do with where halyards and reefing lines are led!

Bridge deck clearance: More is generally better, but it comes at a price in interior headroom, or windage, and maybe looks. These prices are not small. Almost all cats will slam, at least occasionally. But the MORE you sail (which will be at an angle to the waves), and the BETTER you sail, the less any bridge deck will slam. Fire up the engines and plow straight into the wind and waves and, yep, most cats will slam and some worse than others. And so do monohulls, other than those with deep v hulls. Funny how we forget that slamming has a lot to do with how the boat is driven.....any boat.

I could go on and on. There are about 20 or so significant compromises/features/choices to be made, before you get to thinking about actual builders and models.

Do your research. Get on some cats. Talk to experienced cat folk. Talk to maintenance folks, especially at charter companies. Take your time and enjoy the journey. And best of luck with your eventual choice.

Cheers,
Tim

[Lance Reynolds]

Hey Tim , congratulations on your very detailed analysis this needs to be framed .
Here is a comment and I would be interest in your opinion .
Western Red Cedar Stripped Core with West System Glass Encapsulation produces a very stiff , light weight , impact resistent hull including the ability to incorporate the deck and hull without joining two moulded pieces.
I am not suggesting anyone takes on this very labour intensive build but many discerning sailors have and their usualy purpose built cruising Cats are out there .
Lance

[Lance Reynolds]

BTW I commented on the Western Red Cedar above having also owned a Balsa cored Cat and a Foam core , I believe the longtitudinal stiffness effects the hull flexibility and produces a smoother ride .
For "Want to go" there are boats that get to Thailand and Malaysia that then go on the market also .
Queensland too but they are usually local boats well designed and built, good dollar value for you not many foreign cruisers bother with Australia anymore with the Border Patrol Lottery who knows who you might get and then you pay for every inspection service plus taxes .

[Mariano]

Originally Posted by Barra

Hmmm tell that to the family of the 44 delivery crew that was lost in Indian ocean a few years back.

Pretty sure they were more than just fretting....

Hey, have you seen the new DISCOVERY / BLUEWATER 50 cat?
Ir has a hot tub instead of a forward cookpit. Acording to your statement it is unsafe in heavy weather too......

[rabbi]

Originally Posted by contrail

Disclaimer: I own a 1999 Leopard 45 (one of the "old", really strong, Leopards).

[...very long post]...

Do your research. Get on some cats. Talk to experienced cat folk. Talk to maintenance folks, especially at charter companies. Take your time and enjoy the journey. And best of luck with your eventual choice.

Cheers,
Tim

One of the best posts I have read in the last years. Should become a sticky

Originally Posted by contrail

Boat builders evolve their building techniques and methods over time. Some things get better, and others might not.

And maybe (just maybe) they even change from one model year to another.
The Lagoon 380 used to be foam cored hulls above waterline. My own 2008 boat appears to be foam cored at the few places where I can see the bare fibreglass. The 2010 spec says foam cored.
The 2018 spec say balsa core above the waterline.
Maybe just an editor's mistake, maybe a change in the production process.

Originally Posted by contrail

I do believe that most manufacturers used to design their boats "from the outside in". In other words, a boat was designed as a boat, and accommodations were then designed to fit. Recently, they seem to be designed more "from the inside out", in other words, a boat is designed around the selling features of the interior. Better or worse? Could be either, depending on usage. And YOUR choice!

You nailed it. Recently the designers draw an accomodation plan that the marketing folks demand. Then they draw a hull to make the accomodation float.
Until 5 years ago it seemed to be hull first, the squeeze in the accomodation.

Compare FP mahe and FP Lucia, or the Lagoon 380 and the 39.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Mariano

Hey, have you seen the new DISCOVERY / BLUEWATER 50 cat?
Ir has a hot tub instead of a forward cookpit. Acording to your statement it is unsafe in heavy weather too......

It would be safer without the forward cockpit/hot tub.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by rom

Ok my bad, Leopard was a bit slower than the other big 2 to switch to SD. As for the Lagoons, I am suprised, even the 30 years old L47 had SD already. Which lagoons are you thinking about ?

leopard 47: https://www.multihull.nl/multihulls/...d47.77152.html
Did they make two versions of this one ?



"Plenty" ? depends how you define it. If I say "most" cats (<50 foot) on the water today have SDs, I would be right wouldn"t I ? So, my point is that by avoiding SDs the OP is avoiding a lot of good cats, from 30 years old to brand new.

You made some very good points in your messages here. So what would be your suggestion for a second hand or new cat ?

In the order in which you asked, I am within 100 yards of a Lagoon 55/57 that has shaft drives, and I know of a couple of her sisterships, and they all so, too. It's an older boat, for sure, but they did make this model, at least. I remember a discussion I once had with some maintenance folks, in which it was mentioned that a manufacturer (not sure if it was Lagoon), actually gave you a choice.

With regard to the L47, they made only one model, and it was an extension of the original L45, and it had shaft drives. The engines were/are under the aft cabin berth and some did not like the climb involved in getting into bed. That was one factor in designing the L46 with sail drives.

There is a motor cat 47 foot Leopard, a completely different boat that is based on the L46 sailing cat, but with no mast, a flybridge, a solid foredeck area in place of the trampolines, and much larger engines. Whether they are shaft drives or sail drives, I have no idea. All of this underlines my point about the credibility of many specs given out on the internet.

You are correct that vastly more cats have sail drives, today. It used to be primarily a European phenomenon, but lots of US made boats (mostly mono's) have them now, as well. Sure, it means eliminating many boats from consideration, but if you judge that to be a critical decision factor, that's what happens. Deciding which side of a compromise you want is part of the process. Kind of like gasoline engines. Most sailors would say, "for starters, I want a diesel and no part of a gasoline engine." There was a time when that eliminated many boats. In my opinion, eliminating boats is how you get to the right choice, for YOU. But, I think most people make a choice based on less important issues, and then try to justify it.

You asked for my suggestion of a new or used cat. Since a sail drive is a non-starter for me, you will appreciate that my list is quite short! It's one of the reasons I got a Leopard in the first place, along with the fact that the old ones (and, I think, the new ones, but you would have to check) have sacrificial keels that can even be replaced in the water. The idea is that if you hit a reef, you don't damage the hull, just the easily fixable or replaceable keel. It works, very well, and don't ask how I have first hand knowledge of this! Such a keel is not on my "must" list, but it is on my "really like to have" list. So, that, along with the shaft drive, pointed me to a Leopard. I bought my 1999 L45 in 2004, have had her ever since, and have never regretted the decision. Since it never occurs to me to get a new cat (actually, about the only "new" feature that attracts me is that controversial forward cockpit, I must admit!) I have not done the in depth evaluation of compromises, for my own needs, that I would feel comfortable making a recommendation. Sorry not to be more helpful there, but I think one should be making one's own list of compromise choices.

[contrail]

Originally Posted by Lance Reynolds

Hey Tim , congratulations on your very detailed analysis this needs to be framed .
Here is a comment and I would be interest in your opinion .
Western Red Cedar Stripped Core with West System Glass Encapsulation produces a very stiff , light weight , impact resistent hull including the ability to incorporate the deck and hull without joining two moulded pieces.
I am not suggesting anyone takes on this very labour intensive build but many discerning sailors have and their usualy purpose built cruising Cats are out there .
Lance

Are you referring to a core, with glass skins, or "cold molded", in which the wood strips, either double or triple diagonal are saturated with epoxy? These last are what I always thought were the best built boats. Problem is, repairs need lot of skill which may or may not be available, and lots of time. I am not familiar with the Cedar, used as a core, so can't make a fair comment.

There are some advantages in materials that are easy to get and use with common skills!

Cheers,
Tim

[boom23]

Originally Posted by Mariano

Hey, have you seen the new DISCOVERY / BLUEWATER 50 cat?
Ir has a hot tub instead of a forward cookpit. Acording to your statement it is unsafe in heavy weather too......

They are marketing it as new but it's been around for a while. They did not build too many of them. I wonder why...

[contrail]

I am going to say one other thing about Leopards, whilst acknowledging my bias. Since Robertson and Caine are now part of the same company as Moorings, if follows that they are particularly interested in building boats suitable for charter. They have always done this, even back when they were working with the Moorings, as opposed to being a part of them.This doesn't just mean four cabins for more people, less storage, etc. etc. etc. It also has very much to do with ease of maintenance.

Speaking of older Leopards (and maybe the new ones), I was speechless when I first inspected the model I would buy (L45). With one simple exception, absolutely everything was very easily accessible. It was as if the design brief said, "this boat will not be out of service for more than a day, no matter what needs to be replaced". When I have to work on something, I can just sit down and get on with it. None of that "reach around something that I can't see and take an afternoon to loosen the critical nut that holds something in." Those who have spent time on boats will know how rare this is, and how frustrating it is to work on most of them. Not my boat, thank goodness. This applies to mast, tanks, engines, generator, arch, keels, you name it. Removing any of this stuff is no more than the work of a few hours, at most.

Whether you do the work, yourself, or you hire someone to do it, time matters. It also matters with regard to keeping things well maintained. There are advantages to having a boat built to be sailed by bareboating novices (I am being polite, here :-)), and built to be maintained in an efficient and timely way, as well as being built super strong. Doesn't really matter if you are a charterer or owner. It's good to buy a boat that was built to be run as a business, wouldn't you think?

I remember my father asking a cab driver, many decades ago, why that particular cab company only used Cadillacs, which were the luxury car of the era. The response? "They are the least expensive cars to operate, and the most reliable." Sadly, those days may have gone for Cadillac, but the moral of the story remains. The cab company was using Cadillacs because of a business decision, pure and simple.

Cheers,
Tim