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Old 24-09-2008, 23:19   #106
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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
As far as I can recall, this thread started out discussing advantages and disadvantages of a catamaran compared to a monohull. As usual it has degenerated into an argument about how cats would survive the ultimate storm.
I am not viewing it as an argument. It's still a discussion

Time and time again boats are found adrift after the storm. Fundamentally they are all hard to sink.

Makes me wonder - as I am reading Heavy Weather tactics at the moment. How much "meddling" we do as crew that may not be necessary for the boat but may be necessary for the crew.

What I am getting at is that in the bad storms, from what I have read, a lot of the damage to people comes from flying debris in teh cabin, falling off the boat etc. etc. In our desire to be seaman and "control" the boat we try warps, drogues, anchors etc. when really the boat may just be fine on its own.

I know that is a naive view but I am throwing it out for discussion.

The reasons to leave the boat are well covered in many books but includes lack of confidence, injury and fear.

You won't know till you get there and you hope you never get there...
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Old 24-09-2008, 23:29   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex-Calif View Post
I am not viewing it as an argument. It's still a discussion

Time and time again boats are found adrift after the storm. Fundamentally they are all hard to sink.

Makes me wonder - as I am reading Heavy Weather tactics at the moment. How much "meddling" we do as crew that may not be necessary for the boat but may be necessary for the crew.

What I am getting at is that in the bad storms, from what I have read, a lot of the damage to people comes from flying debris in teh cabin, falling off the boat etc. etc. In our desire to be seaman and "control" the boat we try warps, drogues, anchors etc. when really the boat may just be fine on its own.

I know that is a naive view but I am throwing it out for discussion.

The reasons to leave the boat are well covered in many books but includes lack of confidence, injury and fear.

You won't know till you get there and you hope you never get there...

Thats what I was try to say!!! you say it better

Question the Mono that vanished what was the lenth ? anyone know
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Old 25-09-2008, 00:29   #108
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Thanks guys for all the info on righting multis,seems like unless someone comes up with a inflatable bag on the mast large enough to lift the mast to or above the surface you won't do any good by yourself. We dont hear of too many cats going over these days but tris yes, I know they float inverted but thats not a good answer.I don't want to go there!. I read of Rose noel (?) some years ago, you NZ guys would be as familiar with that story as Ramtha. Is a modern tri that easy to trip? With my lack of Tri experience can some tri owners tell us about sailing them? I'm interested in buying one, either a Dragonfly or Corsair/Farrier.
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Old 25-09-2008, 00:52   #109
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I'm interested in buying one, either a Dragonfly or Corsair/Farrier.
I would have thought these easier to right as you could swing an ama on the dragonfly and I would have thought you could fold a farrier float, only the beams would provide flotation.

This could allow you to right it beam on

Just a thought, could be wrong

Easy to trip? I have seen them flogged mercilessly and have seen them go close, but they were being flogged hard

In a fast cruising situation I think you would be getting scared before you got to the flip stage

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Old 25-09-2008, 00:57   #110
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I don't know that anyone is claiming superiority for cats in this kind of weather, simply that they CAN survive it, without needing active intervention from a highly competent crew.
Quite right and I don't know anyone except an complete idiot who would suggest otherwise.

Opps, I found an idiot and he's in the mirror I'd listen to Rick rather than me to be honest, he's not prone to brain farts like.... errr...one of us

I've had 2 dented crew in big blows. One slipped on some diesel that came back up a vent. Big bruised shoulder and bottom. The other copped a Almanac around the ear, which flew off a shelf. Fat ear and he lived. I pulled some muscles in my arm once while trying to replace a broken reef line at 2am but I suppose that comes with the game. I've since made custom next to no chafe possible reef lines for my own boat.

The key thing I like to do is make sure that before we leave port we can get the boat into nasty weather mode quickly. That involves moving possible flying objects. I do tend to pack as much as low in the boat as possible anyway. Not always the easiest if your cruising I must admit. Lots of my passages have just been deliveries so a bit easier when you don't have to live on the boat before hand.
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Old 25-09-2008, 01:04   #111
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lolanreg @ amartc you might find this Thread a good read also.

righting a multi gone turtle
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Old 25-09-2008, 01:52   #112
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Gmac then i`m a complete idiot who would suggest otherwise.
I would sooner be hanging out my wet belongings than treading water looking for floating debris to spend my last hours with but that maybe just me.
But thats what I see as the major advantage of a multihull.
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Old 25-09-2008, 02:22   #113
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I haven't bought either yet, and very limited experience. Reading this makes me wonder if I'm safer doing the M3 every day. I'm not, you just make it sound that way.
Another issue that I took on board early, is that as a 'Cruiser' I don't have a destination or a timetable. Well not while I'm in Europe. I'm not going to flog into headwinds unless I really don't like where I am and there's no where not inot wind as an acceptable alternative.
The Storm. Was it that sudden that no-one turned back? Or diverted? How many plugged on and how many put their own backs to the wind, stuck their laft arm out (is it right down below) and set course to avoid the worst of it. Dear departed brother reckoned a cat can generally make good use of it's reaching speed to avoid the worst of KNOWN storm, and in the deep blue storms are usually predictable by eye and feet. Right? How did so many boats get caught in, or near, the middle of it?
Also the drogue/chute. Maxing Out has given his experiences. It has to be a tried system (tried by you on that boat) with chafe resistance in place to survive a week. (Hope fully most storms won't last more than two days but there may be more than one each trip). And a means of warming cans of soup must not involve naked flames or boiling liquids in open topped saucepans.
The boat will take care of itself if you've done things right. You have to take care of yourself and crew.
Mono or Multi. I still want a cat. An old, proven, surveyed, maintained Cat.
I know it will outperform me. It won't sink under me. It will always be there for me, on top of the water, which ever way up.
I can live with that.
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Old 25-09-2008, 02:55   #114
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Gmac then i`m a complete idiot who would suggest otherwise.
We going to argue about who's the biggest idiot? That's novel Oh I see you are in Australia.... hmmmm better not go there

Mate, I've been out there in both and don't really have a preference but don't have any issue with those who do. Boat choice is a very personal thing.

I just think any sound boat is fine as long as the crew are up to it and ready if the brown stuff hits the fan. Equally a bunch of idiot's (the pair of us maybe ) get caught in a big nasty I think the boat is in danger no matter the number of hulls.

I do have some issues how some lay the entire safety factor at the feet of the boat rather than the crew on her. Yes, as I seriously cocked up earlier, a multi did in fact come thru fine with no crew but that's nothing monos haven't done either. But why send your boat cruising by itself while you stay at home, it doesn't happen very often so hardly a good referance for everyday use as we are discussing (rather well I must say, good on us) here.

Eleven - most of that storms drama was caused by the speed at which it arrived and the power it had. Some nasty was projected but far from the intensity that actually hit the fleet. One of those 'out of the blue' type moments, which are never good.

It's something not massively uncommon here but usually without such intensity and duration of that beast. I was bring a 40ft motorsailer back from Tonga one year and about 1/2 way back we copped a meeting of 2 small lows completely out of the blue. At 1300hrs we had 20kts odd and clouds on the horizon. At 1400hrs the windgear was hard on the stopper at 60kts and were bare poles at 6kts of boat speed. These small lows spin off the top of Aussie and fire across quite quick, nasty little buggers. At the 1800hr radio sked I kept with NZ, John was telling me our forecast was for sloppy seas and 20-25kts. That's far from what we had and when I told John he couldn't see it on the weather charts. We had a rough 12-14 hours odd but came thru fine, I was well prepared and it was a solid boat. What's more during that we did 61mls in 10 hours and straight at our destination, the Bay of Islands, the best run of the whole trip Short and sharp is common but long and horrendously sharp isn't for that stretch of water.
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Old 25-09-2008, 03:19   #115
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I don't know that anyone is claiming superiority for cats in this kind of weather, simply that they CAN survive it, without needing active intervention from a highly competent crew.
What have I missed along the lines? - I was not aware anyone was claiming that they could not survive, as they do and did. I have repeatedly stated that as far as I know at least one cat was involved that completed its voyage. Was rather wondering why all the fuss from some trying to prove that they could , including why all the Ramtha this, and Ramtha that monologue as if it was only Ramtha that was there.

To much of some here reading between the lines and and not the lines themselves, and doing so when so defensive about their chosen craft type (and even model) they don't notice what the written lines are actually saying. Think I'll start talking to the JetSki crowd as I think they make more sense and much more relaxed about their craft and themselves - can we have a JetSki forum please .
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Old 25-09-2008, 03:32   #116
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One part of a comparison discussion that has not been mentioned deals with “Structural Integrity” ….after 30 years of heavy use?

I am not a structural engineer so I can’t really say whether the stress factors in the bridge deck when the multi-Hulls are independently compressing and unloading in a seaway are an issue over time, but it was an area that concerned me 20 years ago about large multi design. (I only had a hobie 18 so experienced the crossbars working over time and needing re-tightening)


I imagine today that has all been worked out, but even so, latent problems caused by stress, may still be an unknown in composite builds.

When I was first shopping for a live-aboard I focused on Cats, because they have a lot of inherent plusses for tropical cruising and live aboard.

I shopped mostly in Asia and found the not so older ones (Prouts etc) pretty tired looking with a few gel coat repairs at tight radiuses that concerned me, despite the premium price these boats were asking.

At the end, I went with what I knew and bought Stargazer that was built in 1982 and has done a few circumnavigations.

I have been over every square inch of her internal structure (corten steel) and have found no deformation or stress crazing.

I honestly don’t know so I will ask…….Are there many 30 year old, well used Cats that have demonstrated long term structural integrity?

That could be a factor to consider when choosing.
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Old 25-09-2008, 03:52   #117
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Gmac I do have a preferance and guess what it is

Although statistics are sparse, a study of 35 publicized multihull capsizes between 1975 and 1985 contained only three cruisers, one anchored in a 170-knot hurricane. Ninety-one percent were racers, designed and sailed to the edge, and 60 percent occurred during racing or record attempts. A full 54 percent of the boats were eventually salvaged, some floating for months before retrieval. Ninety percent of the crews survived, and half of those lost were on a single boat shadowing the infamous 1979 Fastnet Race that claimed so many monohullers. What percentage of sunken or even rolled monohulls and their crews survive? We just don't know. Designer Chris White also has studied statistics and can only
conclude that, in recent decades, multihulls have proven to be up to 23 percent safer than monohulls.
I loaned this from 2 Hulls Multihull Catamaran and Trimaran Used and New Sail and Power Yac For the full story
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Old 25-09-2008, 04:28   #118
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Completely sorry. That scenario did cross my mind just after I pushed the button, damn that Murphy's Law.

So in that case I take it all back.

I wasn't thinking of the individual boats when I posted, just of one with a real lazy crew. I was just trying to see how anyone could just sit there and do nothing. If they weren't actually there, that does explain it.

My bad for not thinking, sorry all, inc Rick. It's this damn work stuff interfering with my foruming
Apology accepted , thanks for the PM
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Old 25-09-2008, 05:06   #119
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It seems that the abilities of the crew are of little value in some boats - the devil in me makes me ponder on whether that was the background to Rick's purchase decision ..
In fact it was. I read the account of the crew of the Catalac. In the center of the storm, at it's peak, wind speed was in excess of 100 mph and they had 100 ft waves. These conditions are just too much for any cruising sail boat to attempt sailing or manuvering. No monohull could be prevented from broaching and rolling regardless of the experience of the crews or strategies employed. This is why all of them were dismasted. I submit that in these conditions, crew is of little help regardless of the boat type. We are in fact having an armchair discussion about the worst Nature can throw at a cruising boat.

The Catalac 12M acted as a raft would. It fell off waves without turning turtle and slid forward, backward and sideways down most of them, with the crew in the salon holding on for dear life. There was no attempt by the crew to improve the boat's condition. In the end, boat and crew survived the storm. Crew without injury, boat without dismasting. This is a testament to how strongly the boat was built and despite MidLandOne's inference, was a big influence when it came time for me to select a catamaran.

OK, I'm putting away my soapbox....
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Old 25-09-2008, 05:16   #120
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advantages of a multihull

Well its time this thread got back on track, cause we all know what happens to multi-hull threads that don't.
A multi-hull has many advantages. Living "ON" the water in a catamaran is preferable to living "IN" the water on a mono. The multi-hulls ability to not roll like a metronomic pig. The catamarans live-ability is enhanced by its layout not being constrained by a narrow beam, ie one doesn't get the feeling they are living in a half submerged hollow log. The ability to sail to windward in 3 feet of water ( sailing in the world heritage listed Shark Bay) can be highly desirable. Sure, this can be accomplished in a shallow draft, lee-boarded thin water mono, but is this type of boat then blue water capable?. The ability to open a locker door on a catamaran without the contents being evenly distributed over the opener and the boat, as so often happens with our heeling cousins.
I'm sure I can think of more, just give me time .
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