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Old 23-09-2008, 17:50   #61
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I suspect you are comparing apples with cheese again. The only viable way to compare costs for purchase is in comparison of living space by the sq ft.
No I am very aware of even equating the square meter "livable" space. I was talking more about "attributes." Like the full visibility that everyone loves in cats, shallow draft, etc.. If I were to compare the actual square footage of a mono to a CAT, I would get a nice size mono indeed that I think has better overall fittings.

For example, I've spent years researching the fact that if I get an average made CAT let's say for $500K, the mono that I can get for that is absolutely gorgeous with top end fittings, extras, upgraded everything. When I tried to get that same quality in the CAT, it jumped again to $750K.

So, it just comes back to your personal preferences, what your willing to compromise and sacrifice and your overall budget for the long term. I also agree that it is impossible to compare the two or even the same boat/CAT with different people. When you have a variable like people, no environment/skill set will be the same, PERIOD!! You can have identical boats but two skippers will handle it differently and one could be a graceful cruise, while the other is just a pounding mess.

Get what you can afford, fell in love with and are willing to spend years on without regret. Then that is your perfect boat.
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Old 23-09-2008, 17:56   #62
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I just don't think you can say in terms of safety "I think the boat with one engine and no positive floatation is just as safe as the boat with two engines and large, independent floatation chambers".
However a boat with 2 engines is twice as likely to have an engine failure in a storm trying to power off a lee shore - LOL....


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Many people simply try to point to statistics, which are so general and so imcompletely reported that they really can't be relied upon.
Let's agree that without proper denominators, there are no statistics for boating safety - there just aren't. Everything is an assumption in terms of "statistical safety"

I think it is perfectly legitimate to apply experience to risk factors and develop a risk assumption table.

However comparing mono to multi in this regard is the road to heck...

Here's one anecdote - and trust me, I am buying a multi one day so this is no indictment.

A friend was blasting along under motor one night in a tri - a really big tri - up the Straits of Mallacca. They were pushing 10 kts. One of the guys happened to be on deck and at the last moment spotted an unlighted navigational buoy. The skipper, a very experienced guy, was able to avoid the nav buoy by inches but he claimed that had they struck the nav buoy between the ama and the main hull the ama probably would have come off.

Unless struck dead center, I reckon any mono would have deflected off with hull damage.
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Old 23-09-2008, 18:47   #63
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Statistics on losses only have some relevance if given for the same waters so the comparison is like for like as far as importance of coastal dangers, weather, and other risks are concerned in that locality.

Personally, overall, I would have though that because multihulls are more frequently found in the more benign weather parts of the world and their shallow draft as far as coral risk is concerned I would have thought that on the face of it that they would have a much lower frequency of loss than monos while at sea for the whole world population. Seems that is not so as if I read some of the posts correctly the frequency of loss is claimed to be around the same for both.
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Old 23-09-2008, 18:57   #64
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Talking I like multis's just fine thank you...

I like multis's just fine thank you...

Just so long as they are self-righting, and pretty.....
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Old 23-09-2008, 18:57   #65
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...I read some of the posts correctly the frequency of loss is claimed to be around the same for both.
Hurricanes
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Old 23-09-2008, 20:00   #66
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Rick -
In my post I referred to "while at sea" which is what I was thinking of. I assume that in modern times very few sail boats (compared to the whole population of sail boats) are caught out at sea in hurricanes (named ones that is) whether mono or multi?

Are cats more vulnerable in marinas/moorings than monos in hurricanes(not sure how one compares one to the other though for that - whether by displacement, WL length, etc?) in order to increase the frequency of losses overall for them (at sea and berthed) - not something I've ever looked at and the only place I have been shortly after a destructive hurricane there are hardly any cats so nothing to base an opinion on for myself. Would their shallow draft decrease their vulnerability due to better ability to get into sheltered shallows and maybe from a cat population point of view offset any greater vulnerability in berths/moorings than monos (should there be any)?

John
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Old 23-09-2008, 20:36   #67
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Allan, As before I wrote of a 35ft cat sailing in race/ rally from NZ to Fiji, huge storm, cyclone in our language, It was the crew that had to give up, not the boat, I think from memory, skipper broke arm etc.15 mtr breaking seas. They asked to be rescued to NZ navy ship sent to help. Some two or three mono hulls dissappeared altogether. Another bigger catamaran had a "kooky" female owner, said beings from space wanted her boat to be reference point for aliens to land, had the Navy boat sink it at that point after being rescued. The first cat was found a month later, still shipshape near Fiji and after some financial arrangment returned to owners. Thank god I was never put to that test with the ultimate wave or storm, and I've had many.a lot depends on the amount of experience you have. I've had 60+ knots several times in a races to Hobart. more going to Lord Howe Is, but you have to do what you can, scared as you might be,and faith in your boat. Must look up the video, taken by the navy guys.
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Old 23-09-2008, 22:58   #68
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The first cat was found a month later, still shipshape near Fiji and after some financial arrangment returned to owners.
Apart from the mono that was lost with its crew (and I believe that was a disaster waiting to happen from what I know) the abandoned monos turned up too albeit wrecked on islands they had drifted to - without rushing away to fish the data out, all but one I believe (I put the actual numbers for all boats abandoned and where they were found in a post some months ago if interested).

The monos were also abandoned due to crew problems such as injuries albeit after knockdowns.

There again I have spoken to several crews who went through the same storm, one of which was very close to the boat that was lost. They maintained that while it was a hard storm they had no problems and had been through the same before on the same route.

I have not been able to determine how many multihulls went through the storm, but there were a lot of monos that did, best estimate I have heard is around 50. I have only heard of 1 cat other than the ones that were abandoned and that is probably about right as the storm was many years ago (1994) when much fewer multis around this part of the world so probably around 15-20x as many monos as multis went through it.
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Old 24-09-2008, 00:57   #69
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Midlandone, Although I've sailed and raced a cruising cat cat for 14 yrs and not come close to tipping it, is there any info over in NZ how to right a tri or cat that has gone over? just what does one do! Hate to lose all my rig if it was still in one piece. Maybe need one of those big plastic bags taken to the top/bottom? of the mast and inflate it. Might work. Just a lot of thoughts as a Farrier tri went over in a race near Brisbane a week ago. it was still floating though. Wife having second thoughts of getting a tri.
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Old 24-09-2008, 01:05   #70
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It was a bad one but the biggest thing of the whole shebang was not so much the wind, which was still up there, as the fact it came from no where and there was very very little warning.

There are many 'stories' drifting around about that blow, many just wrong. The majority of the boats came through perfectly fine if not a bit battered and bruised.

One boat was abandoned due to broken crew and turned up on a reef about 6 weeks later. Then disappeared again only to turn up many miles away on another reef a month or 2 later. The local then turned it into cheap housing. It only had one hull. A very similar story to another boat, whose crew got off as they just got too tired from hanging on so much. They took the offer by the Navy boat to bail off as it was very close at the time. That boat had 2 hulls.

And what does that prove about the differences between multis and monos? Not the slightest thing.
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Old 24-09-2008, 01:26   #71
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Originally Posted by lolanreg@smartc View Post
Midlandone, Although I've sailed and raced a cruising cat cat for 14 yrs and not come close to tipping it, is there any info over in NZ how to right a tri or cat that has gone over? just what does one do! Hate to lose all my rig if it was still in one piece. Maybe need one of those big plastic bags taken to the top/bottom? of the mast and inflate it. Might work. Just a lot of thoughts as a Farrier tri went over in a race near Brisbane a week ago. it was still floating though. Wife having second thoughts of getting a tri.
2 months ago we had to right a Cat which had a whopsie.

Got as much sail down as we could. Used the headsail halyard to pull (very not easy) 2 decent sized windy buoys (Polyform A 5's) as far up the mast as possible. Then put a couple of strops from the rescue boat over the windward most hull and the leeward one and fixed them around the 2 main beams. Closed the boat up as tight as we could. Then loaded as much as we could get, inc the crew, on to the bottom of the windward most hull. Rescue boat drove to windward until we got the mast parallel with the water and quickly chucked a some more floats at the masthead to stop her going back again. Again very quickly we dragged the rest of the sails down and got the crew off just in case she went bad for the last bit. Rescue boat drove ahead and she popped up the right way.

Tidied her up and took the water out (not that much really) and towed her home. A lot of stuff inside water damaged, one torn sail and a very cold crew (not summer here yet) but otherwise she came thru rather well.

There was no way the crew alone could have done it by themselves, they did need outside assitance.

I'd say a Tri would be a nitemare and no where near as easy as a Cat especially the Tris with big floats. The ones with smaller floats which have less buoyancy would be a lot easier. I think I'd rather tip a Cat than a Tri anyday.

If I had the option I'd think about putting an inflatable airbag type arrangement inside the top of my mast hooked to a air cylinder. I reckon if you can stop a Cat going full turtle it certianly would make any big whopsie far easier to come back from. How you would do the airbag thing so it could be activated real real fast would be the trick bit.

Getting the Cat from full inverted to mast just out of the water was hard but from there relatively easy.
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Old 24-09-2008, 01:33   #72
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Originally Posted by lolanreg@smartc View Post
Midlandone, Although I've sailed and raced a cruising cat cat for 14 yrs and not come close to tipping it, is there any info over in NZ how to right a tri or cat that has gone over? just what does one do! Hate to lose all my rig if it was still in one piece. Maybe need one of those big plastic bags taken to the top/bottom? of the mast and inflate it. Might work. Just a lot of thoughts as a Farrier tri went over in a race near Brisbane a week ago. it was still floating though. Wife having second thoughts of getting a tri.
I've got a relation pretty close to you at Mount Morgan - my mother's cousin so don't know what that makes her to me .

Don't know of any multihull righting techniques. Much of my experience is with fast power cats and while we have had one of those (135 foot) blow all its front windows in when the crew lost control of it going down a big wave driving into the next, they're not meant to capsize .

Was a tri lost between here and the tropical Pacific about 2 years ago. Was an Australian owned boat and months later it was found washed up with one hull missing and a message on the bottom as the crew of 2 had managed to stay on it capsized for a while before being lost. But that was a disaster waiting to happen that boat so is no discredit to multi's - it would never have got clearance to leave if it had been a NZ boat.

Going by the statistical interpretations of some around here a good safe boat for ocean voyaging is a kayak. To the best of my knowledge only one has ever been lost (that with its crew) while crossing the unpredictable Tasman Sea so must be safer than multi's, monos and even ships . I might start paddling across to see you next week .
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Old 24-09-2008, 01:43   #73
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2 months ago we had to right a Cat which had a whopsie..
End over is the easier way to do it rather than side over, I.e. bridle to bows, back over sterns, tow over - if you can sink the stermns by opening a locker etc, then all the better. (the sails arent fighting the process). Indeed I am suprised you were able to get a cat side over (other than a beach cat), and tris actually work even better end over than cats.

And the conversation about the storm is the subject of the video (pacific Rescue) and the simpson cat that happily looked after itself is RAMTHA. Google searches on any of that should give you the full story, heck a search on this forum on Ramtha will give you a bit to read.
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Old 24-09-2008, 02:48   #74
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During that nightmare storm, can anyone tell me what the average size was for the monos?? Were they from across the board in size or were they are at least a certain size like at least all over 33 feet?? Just curious to see what kind of mono's made it through that craziness??
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Old 24-09-2008, 02:48   #75
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End over is the easier way to do it rather than side over, I.e. bridle to bows, back over sterns, tow over - if you can sink the stermns by opening a locker etc, then all the better. (the sails arent fighting the process). Indeed I am suprised you were able to get a cat side over (other than a beach cat), and tris actually work even better end over than cats.
That was discussed but the call went the other way. Thinking back you are probably quite right and end over would have been better. It was a 35fter and the rescue boat a big RIB.

Quote:
And the conversation about the storm is the subject of the video (pacific Rescue) and the simpson cat that happily looked after itself is RAMTHA. Google searches on any of that should give you the full story, heck a search on this forum on Ramtha will give you a bit to read.
I know many who were in it and often sail with some of the crew off the Navy vessel that did the rescuing.
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