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Old 22-09-2008, 19:47   #31
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If I can put my pennysworth in, having had 5 monohulls I had a trip on a Cat and that convinced me,I had to build one. Have you noticed that if you look at a picture of a 100ft mono sailing, they still lean over, just like the little ones. natureboy
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Old 23-09-2008, 01:05   #32
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The advantages Multis have over Monos are numerous.
The advantages of a Mono over a Multi are numerous.

The simple fact is neither are better than the other unless you get into specifics and then you'll still come out in a 50/50 place. Yes I know some have hardened preferences for whatever reason but I'm one to take each boat on it's merit and not just lump them altogether. Some multis are absolute shockers and shouldn't have been allowed on the water just as some monos equally are.

I find the safety argument always a goodie. Personally I think multis are safer in a coastal situation but in the middle of a wild ocean I'd prefer a mono. Can't exactly put my finger on why but I've always felt safer and more in control in the monos than the Multis. Maybe and it's only a maybe, my subconscious knows if knocked over a mono comes back up where a multi stays up the wrong way. But then if I think it thru what is safer than an upside down Multi, not much really. But then again if I get knocked over in either I'd regard myself as an idiot so why am I thinking like that anyway. By the way I should really say Cats as I have been offshore on a Tri.

All come down to what your desires are. I've raced and cruised both. I currently own monos, a multi before that and my sail off into the sunset boat is a Cat. The main reason my next big offshore boat is a Cat is purely for the faster passage times. Apart from that I can't really see any big advantage of one over the other really.

I should also say I'm talking cruising. I've tipped over a big Cat but while racing and must admit that afterwards thinking back it was a bit of fun really apart from the clean up. We were really stonking along and a small bit of extra puff came on and Woops!... Bugger we are all wet, "quick someone save the beers"
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Old 23-09-2008, 01:27   #33
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Gmac, A well designed cruising cat should slide sideways before it would tipover from my experience. If you let the water in, a monos not so good upside down!
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Old 23-09-2008, 01:47   #34
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Quite correct there Lolanreg but just allowing for the 'excrement happens' events even if they are very unusual.

Been smacked in monos many a time and water ingress is not usually a worry. If the weather is that bad you're not sailing with the windows open.... err, the smart of us aren't at least. Correct, I don't regard us all as being equally smart
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Old 23-09-2008, 01:54   #35
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I've been debating this since I've wanted a boat in general, meaning years of research. I've come to the same conclusion that a lot of people ere have realized, that everything is a compromise. When we first looked at boats, we only wanted a CAT PERIOD!! Claiming the same as everyone else about, stability, higher and better views, etc.. But then I do love the look and feel of monos. Plus, I keep thinking about the overall budget.

I would much rather have more money in the kitty for lifestyle and freedom and then spending most of it on a cat and then maintaining it. Most of the monos I am now down to are more then half the price of the cats I wanted. I am totally aware of the compromises but I was able to find several monos that were able to match the CATS pro's. I.E. A raised saloon for a nearly 360 degree view while inside and protect. Shallow draft, I've found a few mono's that offered a variable draft that was even less than some CATS.

I will have to admit that if we had a HUGE budget, then yah, a CAT without hesitation!! But, with a budget in mind and a travelling kitty, a Mono will win out hands down for me especially when I can get nearly the same beneficial attributes as mentioned before..

Just my .00000000000002 cents
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Old 23-09-2008, 02:48   #36
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Just my .00000000000002 cents
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Old 23-09-2008, 05:45   #37
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Very well said G but I would disagree about the speed comment. Rallys simply do not prove this out and the polars are mostly flat. (ie, they reach and anchor well)

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The advantages Multis have over Monos are numerous.
The advantages of a Mono over a Multi are numerous.

The simple fact is neither are better than the other unless you get into specifics and then you'll still come out in a 50/50 place. Yes I know some have hardened preferences for whatever reason but I'm one to take each boat on it's merit and not just lump them altogether. Some multis are absolute shockers and shouldn't have been allowed on the water just as some monos equally are.

I find the safety argument always a goodie. Personally I think multis are safer in a coastal situation but in the middle of a wild ocean I'd prefer a mono. Can't exactly put my finger on why but I've always felt safer and more in control in the monos than the Multis. Maybe and it's only a maybe, my subconscious knows if knocked over a mono comes back up where a multi stays up the wrong way. But then if I think it thru what is safer than an upside down Multi, not much really. But then again if I get knocked over in either I'd regard myself as an idiot so why am I thinking like that anyway. By the way I should really say Cats as I have been offshore on a Tri.

All come down to what your desires are. I've raced and cruised both. I currently own monos, a multi before that and my sail off into the sunset boat is a Cat. The main reason my next big offshore boat is a Cat is purely for the faster passage times. Apart from that I can't really see any big advantage of one over the other really.

I should also say I'm talking cruising. I've tipped over a big Cat but while racing and must admit that afterwards thinking back it was a bit of fun really apart from the clean up. We were really stonking along and a small bit of extra puff came on and Woops!... Bugger we are all wet, "quick someone save the beers"
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Old 23-09-2008, 07:29   #38
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I agree with Joli (did I really just type that?) I don't believe a loaded down cruising cat is any faster than a comparable mono. I will argue that when you arrive at your destination, you'll better rested in a Cat vs a mono. When it comes to available boat space the Cats have it, hands down. Remember that in a boat's life 95% of the time she's at anchor or dockside. Cats make the perfect live aboard.

On the other hand you will not get that great feeling a mono has when she heels over, puts her nose down and flys.

Incidently, this is the least controversial Multi/mono thread I've seen here. What do you think Gord? Are we all mellowing?
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Old 23-09-2008, 07:36   #39
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The advantages Multis have over Monos are numerous.
The advantages of a Mono over a Multi are numerous.

......I find the safety argument always a goodie. Personally I think multis are safer in a coastal situation but in the middle of a wild ocean I'd prefer a mono. Can't exactly put my finger on why but I've always felt safer and more in control in the monos than the Multis. Maybe and it's only a maybe, my subconscious knows if knocked over a mono comes back up where a multi stays up the wrong way.
I disagree with this. There is much more data available these days and it just doesn't substantiate the monos are safer argument.

Queens Birthday Storm.

All monos dismasted and deaths were incurred. Two cats survived with minimal damage and no loss of life. This is the only documented monster storm (100 ft waves, hurricane winds) where both types of boats were caught in the center. At the very least, catamarans should be given more credit for survivability.

Let's not forget sandy daugherty's NTSB data on boat loses. Cats were at least even with monos.
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Old 23-09-2008, 07:38   #40
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I believe you need to sail what you are comfortable with. Comfort usually comes with what we know, or are use to. Of course budget is a factor too. I wasn't looking for a cat. It just fell into my lap. I feel lucky I was in the right place at the right time with cash in hand......i2f
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Old 23-09-2008, 08:21   #41
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Statistics and damn lies...

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All monos dismasted and deaths were incurred. Two cats survived with minimal damage and no loss of life. This is the only documented monster storm (100 ft waves, hurricane winds) where both types of boats were caught in the center. At the very least, catamarans should be given more credit for survivability.
As an aviation "engineer" statistics are one of my pets.

The problem with accident statistics is that you need a "per." Per mile, per hour, per boat, per passenger etc.

I general aviation - private aeroplanes - no one keeps good stats on miles flown, hours flown etc. The analogy is twin engine planes v. single engine planes (sound familiar?) - lot's of debate about safety...

How many cats are out there and how many miles under the keel (or daggerboards or whatever) compared to monos.

I am not voting one way or another.

I'm just saying that there absolutely has to be X times Y^Z more hours under the keels of mono's v. multi's.

10 mono losses does not equal 10 multi losses.
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Old 23-09-2008, 09:03   #42
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Most of the monos I am now down to are more then half the price of the cats I wanted. I am totally aware of the compromises but I was able to find several monos that were able to match the CATS pro's. I.E. A raised saloon for a nearly 360 degree view while inside and protect. Shallow draft, I've found a few mono's that offered a variable draft that was even less than some CATS.
I suspect you are comparing apples with cheese again. The only viable way to compare costs for purchase is in comparison of living space by the sq ft.
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Old 23-09-2008, 09:07   #43
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As an aviation "engineer" statistics are one of my pets.I'm just saying that there absolutely has to be X times Y^Z more hours under the keels of mono's v. multi's.10 mono losses does not equal 10 multi losses.
As an operational analyst, I am well aware that statistics are only meaningful if you understand the assumptions and error bars involved in the creation of them - something totally outside the the remit of most users of those statistics (especially politicians).

The presentation of the statistics is key to their use, many times I have seen them created to back contradictory arguments by tweaking an assumption here or an error bar there.
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Old 23-09-2008, 11:39   #44
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I just don't think you can say in terms of safety "I think the boat with one engine and no positive floatation is just as safe as the boat with two engines and large, independent floatation chambers". Yeah, there are a lot of lesser arguments that can be made for cats being safer in my mind, being able to grab a stuck halyard at the mast in a storm on the cabin top while standing 12 feet away from the side of the boat versus standing on a heeling platform only a few feet away from the side of the boat and all it would take is a simple mistep to go overboard, being able to sit in your settee at anchor and see the other boat drag down on you versus being below with no visibility, having the sides of the cockpit still 3 feet from the edge of the boat versus being basically right on the sides (especially for kids). There are two ways of assessing risk, trying to look at historical statistics on both sides or simply trying to analyze individual risk factors. In my mind you need to look at the individual risk factors and the effectiveness of the mitigation when assessing overall safety. Many people simply try to point to statistics, which are so general and so imcompletely reported that they really can't be relied upon. Besides, a risk factor analysis will tell you how safe YOUR environment is, versus a statistical population which you may or may not really resemble. Maybe that's the answer, come up with a large risk sheet and weigh the different factors by likelihood and impact for multis and monos. This is such an exercise in geekdom that I really can't resist.....
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Old 23-09-2008, 13:41   #45
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I will argue that when you arrive at your destination, you'll better rested in a Cat vs a mono
Hmmmm, I dunno, I am not so sure. I think once again it depends. It depends on what you have had to sail through. If you had to sail into a choppy condition like Sully experienced for a long time, you are going to arrive damn tired. A mono tends to ride better in those conditions. If you had a lovely sea a good breeze and the right heading, yes a Cat is going to be a dream ride.

As for safety, I think we need to be talking extremes today. Most multis are really up there with abillity to ride out ruff weather. But if you look at the horror stories, 99% of the times any vessel has gone over, it is due to being hit by a big rogue wave event. Every story I have heard or read has been, "we heard this deafening roar and then". No boat is going to get rolled in wind alone, unless you have all the sail up on a multi in which in those weather conditions, you ain't going to anyway. So the real point is in a rogue wave condition, any desing is going to go over. Any design is going to get badly damaged. Most stories suggest that even ports etc get broken which pose the biggest danger and the same danger on either vessel design. The real question would not be cat vs mono, but strength of rig. Will the rig take the roll over and back up on a mono. Will the rig tear the multi apart if the cat remains upside down in that kind of sea state. And the other question and I have not sailed a Cat in huge seas so i can not answer, is can you slow and control a multi in huge seas. The same question can be asked of modern flat hulled monos. One other reason why I chose the full kel design mono. Having experienced several big sea events now, I can not imagine taking a fast flat huled mono through what I experienced. I wold love to know what a cat would do. Anyone???
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