Cruisers Forum
 


Join CruisersForum Today

Reply
 
Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
Old 22-09-2008, 05:43   #16
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
I totally endorse Richard's Comments (not just cause he included a picture of my boat with his article!)

But to try to encapsulate a few points:

Multi
Pro
accomodation size
visibility from inside vessel
ventilation
stability at anchor
no heeling
sail downwind without that horrid rolling
lockers everywhere
manoeuvre under power
easy spinnaker handling and space for anchor handling
faster than a monohull (dependent on vessel type, but at least 1-2 kts)
shallow draft
more deck space
decks much more uncluttered
space for davits and dinghy,
lots of space for solar panels
cockpit large enough for full crew even when sailing

Con
more sensitive to weight (again dependent on design)
cannot go as close to wind - some better than others, but all have a larger tacking angle than modern monos
more expensive to stay in marinas and to be hauled.
needs more looking after in bad weather - but ride is more comfortable, so is easier to do.
much more antifouling!!!!!
more expensive


Thats my lot, but I might be a tad biased!
__________________

__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 06:47   #17
Sponsoring Vendor

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK and BC, Canada when not sailing
Boat: 25ft Merlin catamaran, 34ft Romany catamaran
Posts: 116
There are a couple of points where I beg to differ with Talbot

1) "cannot go as close to wind - some better than others,..."

Although almost certainly true if the catamaran has LAR keels and if you are sailing in medium winds against a good monohull, it's not necessarily true if the catamaran has daggerboards. I have overtaken many monohulls (even racing ones like J92, Mumm 30 etc) to windward in my daggerboarded cruisng cats and I'm sure others have as well.

I agree that a catamaran may not point as high, but, as I've written before, monohulls need to point high as they cannot sail faster than their hull speed. So to increase VMG (which is the relevant criteria for windward performance) they have to reduce their tacking angle. Multihulls, on the other hand, can sail faster.

It may surprise some, but if I want to beat a monohull to windward in a catamaran I wouldn't chose flat water and light winds but rather a wind over 15 knots and preferably a big sea.

2) "more expensive to stay in marinas and to be hauled."

But why do people stay in a marina in the first place??

Is it because their monohull rolls at anchor? or because they cannot beach the boat and dry out?? In practise fewer marinas these days overcharge multihulls. Often they can find you a shallow berth where no monohull can go.

As you don't need to be chocked when ashore a catamaran should be cheaper to haul. (and since it can be easily beached there is less need to haul anyway)

The real problem is finding a yard that can lift a wide beam multihull as most travelhoists are 16ft wide, a few 23ft but not many wider than that.

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

Woods Designs Sailing Catamarans
Woods Designs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 09:10   #18
Senior Cruiser
 
Talbot's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Brighton, UK
Boat: Privilege 37
Posts: 3,579
Images: 32
Richard,

his is one area, that I am not really overly happy - the issue of daggerboards on a short handed cruising cat. Personally, I dont like them. I can understand somebody who has come from a multi racing background not wanting lars, but I am happier without them. That obviates the probability of getting the setting of the board wrong, removes the infringement into the living space of the case for the boards, and avoids the week point of the case whne the board hits an immoveable object.

But that is a personal preference.

Again I am also aware that this is a very subjective issue as there are very few boats that have been built with the option of either lars or boards, but if I recall correctly, one that was did actually set up a comparison, and found little difference between a well designed lars and boards, but that could easily have been a skipper problem.

I agree with your other points completely
__________________
"Be wary of strong drink. It can make you shoot at tax collectors - and miss."
Robert A Heinlein
Talbot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 11:27   #19
Registered User
 
Nordic cat's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Denmark
Boat: FP Tobago 35
Posts: 721
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talbot View Post
Again I am also aware that this is a very subjective issue as there are very few boats that have been built with the option of either lars or boards, but if I recall correctly, one that was did actually set up a comparison, and found little difference between a well designed lars and boards, but that could easily have been a skipper problem.
As to whether a LAR keel or daggerboard, and this being subjective, I beg to differ! Daggerboards correctly designed for the speed envelope will have a better Lift/drag ratio, so they are better at creating lift with a lower drag penalty.

Windward performance on the other hand depends on more than just the lift to windward that the foils create.
Windage is a major factor, as well as sail shape, boat balance and leeway, all factors that are to some extent interdependent.

Dagger boards give you the option of being able to adjust the lift required for the given conditions, whereas LAR foils are an (unknown) compromise, that also create drag when sailing downwind.
On my new boat I will have small LAR keels primarily for beaching/rudder and saildrive protection, as well as daggerboards for upwind work.
yes this is added complexity, and requires space in the hulls -but then all boats are a compromise is some area.

My experience with LAR foils on my present boat is very much in synch with Richards comments. 12 - 16 knots TWS, a nice chop 60-80 cms, and I kept up with an X 37. (This is not a standard Tobago 35), if i could have cracked off 10 degrees he would not have been able to keep up.

Due to the leeway i was making, I was forced to point higher than necessary, so I was "crabbing" more than he was. I believe daggerboards would have seen me being able to sail a few degrees lower to the relative wind, thereby increasing both my speed and VMG.

Alan
__________________
Nordic cat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 11:45   #20
w42
Registered User
 
w42's Avatar

Join Date: Aug 2007
Boat: Whitby 42
Posts: 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jotra76 View Post
What are the advantages of a multihull sailboat that monohull sailboats dont have monohull sailboats and vice versa
Depending where you are, it is more difficult to find fulltime moorage for a multihull, too damn wide. That should settle the argument right there!

__________________
ABYC Trained
I post, therefore I am (an expert).
Censorship alive and well.
Lighten up people!
w42 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 12:04   #21
Sponsoring Vendor

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK and BC, Canada when not sailing
Boat: 25ft Merlin catamaran, 34ft Romany catamaran
Posts: 116
Depending where you are, it is more difficult to find fulltime moorage for a monohull, too damn deep. That should settle the argument right there!

At the Multihull Centre (www.multihullcentre.co.uk) there are 100 multihulls and three monohulls. That is because the tide goes out twice a day

BTW the Multihull Centre is the world's oldest multihull specialist boatyard, having been in Patterson ownership since 1968

Richard Woods of Woods Designs
Woods Designs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 12:07   #22
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
safety first and last

I'm absolutely amazed at how many times we've had this discussion, and how many times people don't realize that for some of us the issue has nothing to do with speed whatsoever, or really even comfort, but of safety. Catamarans are one of the few pleasure sailing boats that can have what commercial vessels do in terms of safety.

1) Multiple redundant water tight compartments ensuring the ability to take a hole in any part of the boat without sinking.

2) redundant engines allowing backup in stormy bay entrances where you have rocks on either side and can't afford to loose an engine.

Would I have spent so much more on a catamaran because I wanted stability at anchor? No, I can deal with rocking. What about heeling, no I LIKE HEELING! Would I have spent the money because I wanted to get there at a couple of knots faster? No, I'm sailing, not flying, it's the worlds slowest method of transportation. Would I have spent the money because I wanted privacy, well my family (wife, son and me) all sleep in one big bed, so much for that argument.

When I considered all of the options, it was either a steel hulled monohull or a catamaran, and after running several passages where the engine died when doing things like going underneath a huge draw bridge, or when trying to make a narrow harbor entrance with the wind directly against me, or trying to dock the boat in a vicous current, or going across a shipping lane with virtual cities coming after me, I finally decided a catamaran with dual engines won out for total safety. I don't care about speed. I even care very little about the ability to point because on some passages you really don't have the option of sailing anyways because of so many coral heads dotting the chart and doing a zig zag trying to get into harbor. At the end of the day I want to be on the safest vessel possible, period. To me that's a catamaran.

BTW, not every catamaran is built that way with water tight chambers, but at least some do, old prout 45s, broadblues, PDQs (36 and 44), African cats, Gunboats, privileges, the SF 44 with a few mods.
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 13:15   #23
Moderator Emeritus
 
GordMay's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Thunder Bay, Ontario - 48-29N x 89-20W
Boat: (Cruiser Living On Dirt)
Posts: 31,580
Images: 240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woods Designs View Post
... That should settle the argument right there!
At the Multihull Centre (www.multihullcentre.co.uk) there are 100 multihulls and three monohulls. That is because the tide goes out twice a day ...
I haven't seen any argument on this thread, merely a bunch of intelligent, & politely expressed on-topic opinions.
I might have thought that a major reason the Multihull Centre has a preponderance of Multi-Hulls, is BECAUSE it's a Multihull Centre.
Perhaps I'm just easily misled (wouldn't be the first book I judged by it's title/cover).
__________________
Gord May
"If you didn't have the time or money to do it right in the first place, when will you get the time/$ to fix it?"



GordMay is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 13:30   #24
Senior Cruiser
 
Alan Wheeler's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Marlborough Sounds. New Zealand
Boat: Hartley Tahitian 45ft. Leisure Lady
Posts: 8,038
Images: 102
That's more like it. Some excellent discussion at last.
Quote:
1) Multiple redundant water tight compartments ensuring the ability to take a hole in any part of the boat without sinking.
While this is true and I am not disputing that, I would also like to point out that many mono's have that as well. In fact in NZ to have a surveyed for passengers vessel, then you have to have a sealible collision bulkhead. Mine is not surveyed for passengers, but I do have a water tight forward compartment and I have 5 sealed independent bilge area's each with their own pump system. I have accidently taken on 6tonnes of water once and the boat only sat down a couple of inches below the normal water line. That bilge area was totaly flooded, but the sealed environment stopped it from flowing to the next etc.
Also Bob's new Shannon being built is having twin engine/props fitted, so it can be done if someone so wants. Personally I like that idea. It must make for a far better manourverablity in tight confines of a Marina.
__________________
Wheels

For God so loved the world..........He didn't send a committee.
Alan Wheeler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 13:34   #25
Senior Cruiser
 
nautical62's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Live Iowa - Sail mostly Bahamas
Boat: Beneteau 32.5
Posts: 2,264
Images: 12
For my intended sailing area of the Bahamas, I'd much prefer a catamaran. Reasons: I like the way they spread people out providing more privacy. I prefer to cook and do other tasks, at less than 20 degrees. I prefer the shallower draft. I prefer the increased cockpit size and deckspace.

However, I'm fairly certain I'll be buying a monohull. The reason is cost. I simply can't justify spending three to four times the cost of a monohull that will do the job for the above advantages.
__________________
nautical62 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 14:17   #26
Armchair Bucketeer
 
David_Old_Jersey's Avatar

Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 10,013
Images: 4
I think the pros and cons vary depending on intended use and personal preferences / desires.

But as mentioned by nautical62 - cost often comes into the equation as a con on the larger more modern cats.
David_Old_Jersey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 14:22   #27
Senior Cruiser
 
schoonerdog's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2004
Location: annapolis
Boat: st francis 44 mk II catamaran
Posts: 1,174
Images: 4
Regarding the watertight compartments I imagine they could be divided into two types, a collision protection or crash box which is designed to contain any inflow into a small area and a second type which divides the hull into several water tight sections, with the ability to have a breach in any one area of the hull (mid hull being typically the worst) and have the remaining areas still keep the boat afloat. I've heard of one monohull manufacturer with a double hull and foam between the hulls which could have a midship breach and still stay afloat. The issue for this reserve bouyancy safety would come down to the volume of space enclosed in the water tight compartments versus the total weight of the craft. To me catamarans would have an inherent advantage:

1) they have no weighted keel and a far lighter in proportion to their volume and thus they need less protected reserve bouyancy to remain floating than a monohull.

2) They have more volume in their form factor for a given length which can thus be potentially used for reserve bouyancy than any mono.

3) The catamaran shape with long narrow hulls tends to allow those hulls to be designed more easily divided into water tight bulkheads, often one forward and one aft enclosing enough trapped bouyancy that it could float the hull. Most monohulls tend to be one big room for nice esthetics and comfort but means that any hole or breach in that large area would lead to it sinking.

4) Catamarans sit more above the water than typical monohulls so a breach so the same sized 2" inch hole in the bottom of a monohull would be under more pressure and result in faster flooding.

5) In the event of a breach, even with sufficient floatation one really couldn't expect anything in the affected hull to be operational. In a catamaran though often the battery banks, communication equipment, etc are on the bridgedeck and would be dry even with mid hull breach and the second hulls engine would still be in service. In a monohull with redundant water tight compartments, I would assume in a midhull breach, you've still lost your engine, battery banks and therefore communication equipment.

Good discussion!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler View Post
That's more like it. Some excellent discussion at last.

While this is true and I am not disputing that, I would also like to point out that many mono's have that as well. In fact in NZ to have a surveyed for passengers vessel, then you have to have a sealible collision bulkhead. Mine is not surveyed for passengers, but I do have a water tight forward compartment and I have 5 sealed independent bilge area's each with their own pump system. I have accidently taken on 6tonnes of water once and the boat only sat down a couple of inches below the normal water line. That bilge area was totaly flooded, but the sealed environment stopped it from flowing to the next etc.
Also Bob's new Shannon being built is having twin engine/props fitted, so it can be done if someone so wants. Personally I like that idea. It must make for a far better manourverablity in tight confines of a Marina.
schoonerdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 15:35   #28
Sponsoring Vendor

Community Sponsor
Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: UK and BC, Canada when not sailing
Boat: 25ft Merlin catamaran, 34ft Romany catamaran
Posts: 116
I suspect GordMay missed w42's post. I was just trying (unsuccessfully) to make a lighthearted comment about mooring availability that came to the opposite conclusion as w42

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com
Woods Designs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 17:17   #29
Moderator Emeritus
 
Ex-Calif's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: May 2007
Location: Singapore
Boat: Maxi 77 - Relax Lah!
Posts: 11,514
Images: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by schoonerdog View Post
BTW, not every catamaran is built that way with water tight chambers, but at least some do, old prout 45s, broadblues, PDQs (36 and 44), African cats, Gunboats, privileges, the SF 44 with a few mods.
Also not every cat will motor out of trouble on one engine...

The biggest driver for my eventual purchase is that if I am going to make my boat my home and the world my living room I'd like to see it...

A mono is like buying a beach condo in the basement...

FWIW - The argument about seakindliness will rage forever.

Every single (and dual or more) boat needs to be evaulated on its own merits for the intended purpose.

There are no absolutes. That "every" mono is better than "every" cat for "every" purpose is ludicrous on its face as is the opposite claim.
__________________
Relax Lah! is For Sale <--- Click
Click--> Custom CF Google Search or CF Rules
You're gonna need a bigger boat... - Martin Brody
Ex-Calif is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22-09-2008, 18:14   #30
Senior Cruiser
 
mikereed100's Avatar

Cruisers Forum Supporter

Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Santa Barbara
Boat: 46' custom cat
Posts: 1,572
Images: 2
Another safety feature of cats that is often overlooked is that they provide a more stable platform for deckwork so there is less risk of cracked ribs and falling overboard.

On the plus side for mono's, I like the way I can sail with my eyes closed just by the feel of the pressure in the sails. My preference for a cruising boat is a cat but I will carry a single hulled sailing dinghy so I can have my "groove" too.
__________________

__________________
mikereed100 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
multihull

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Monohull or Multihull Sailboat? Gisle Multihull Sailboats 546 09-03-2015 09:42
Buy a Sailboat, Charter a Sailboat, or Fractional Ownership? Dr. Moreau General Sailing Forum 7 04-09-2012 13:07
What type of multihull is this? David M Multihull Sailboats 19 21-06-2008 02:06
sailboat vs motorboat - sailboat wins Born to Cruise Off Topic Forum 6 20-06-2008 14:41
Looking for Multihull widget3 Multihull Sailboats 14 19-07-2007 16:41



Copyright 2002- Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:40.


Google+
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Social Knowledge Networks
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.

ShowCase vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.