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Old 25-09-2008, 09:24   #136
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The crux of the problem is some peoples lack of ability to be able to answer a question without deriding other peoples opinions.

We are all aware that the responses are primarily subjective opinions.

Therefore this thread which asked for peoples opinions is asking just that. If you have an opinion that is different by all means express it, but everytime you start by saying somebody elses opinion is wrong will naturally start a bun fight which gets the multihull community a bad name, but when I look back on these different threads frequently seems to originate by somebody who likes monohulls and seems to dislike anybody else's divergent opinion.

Personally I like 2-3 hours of heeling around the cans, but 2-3 days sucks big time, and as for living in a dark damp cave that is rolling side to side - you can keep it, but that is just my opinion.
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Old 25-09-2008, 10:19   #137
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OK, let's go back to the original question and then we'll take two points of view.

Do you like the ability to anchor near the beach in shallow water?

One side says yes. It is convenient, a smaller dinghy can be used for trips, the water is not available to deeper draft boats..........

The other side says no. The safety aspect of being close to a beach is worrisome if the shore becomes lee, bugs are able to make it onto the boats easily, the congestion is greater as folks head in.........

Thats simply one aspect of ownership and they go on and on......there is the crux. Buying a boat is a personal decision influenced by sailing experience, marketing hype, forums like this, and a host of other reasons to numerous to mention.

I'll say it again, every plus has a minus and titles like this thread are divisive.

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What are the advantages of a multihull sailboat that monohull sailboats dont have monohull sailboats and vice versa
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Old 25-09-2008, 10:31   #138
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I agree with Talbot. The big advantage of monohulls is that they are day raced everywhere and you can have a lot of fun with 5-8 friends racing in the evenings. Mind you, you can have even more fun dinghy racing.

Maybe I have been unlucky with my choice of monohulls (as clearly others have with their choice of multihull) but both the Maple Leaf 48 which I sailed from San Diego to Cabo San Lucas last winter and the Downeast 38 that I sailed from Alaska to Oregon in 2005 were horrible sailing boats. The fact that they rolled at anchor, we lived in a basement etc just made it worse.

The worst built boat I ever sailed was a Swan 55 (I sailed it from Antigua to S France via Bermuda so had plenty of time to find its faults) The most dangerous a Folkboat, closely followed by a West Wight Potter (we had a wood one built for us by Stanley Smith).

People get hung up on the fact that multihulls are not self righting (all boats can capsize) but you have to remember that the fin keel monohull with external ballast is a very modern invention. The world was discovered by non self righting craft, while of course very few power boats can self right.

I don't read the powerboat forums, but I wonder how many threads there are saying that a trawler yacht is a dangerous boat because it cannot self-right if rolled over?

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Old 25-09-2008, 11:27   #139
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Joli

as usual, you are missing the point entirely.

the fact that fifteen people who's other views coincide with yours are also happy to moor in shallow water, whereas someone else has had a bad experience because he used a **** anchor and now wouldnt go near the shore to save his life, is not divisive, it is additional data to enable someone to consider next time he anchors.

if you dont like divisive threads, why do you create so many of them?
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Old 25-09-2008, 14:44   #140
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Originally Posted by Joli View Post
OK, let's go back to the original question and then we'll take two points of view.

Do you like the ability to anchor near the beach in shallow water?

One side says yes. It is convenient, a smaller dinghy can be used for trips, the water is not available to deeper draft boats..........

The other side says no. The safety aspect of being close to a beach is worrisome if the shore becomes lee, bugs are able to make it onto the boats easily, the congestion is greater as folks head in.........
Having the ability to anchor in shallow water doesn't mean you are obliged to do so. If the shore might become lee, or if there are bugs you can still anchor out deep with a cat. You just have more options. Or you can overcome any congestion problems by anchoring somewhere too rolly for monohulls.
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Old 25-09-2008, 14:50   #141
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While the subject is anchoring, remember that Joli is a racer. I don't think he worries about rolling at anchor in a mono. Cat's do not.
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Old 25-09-2008, 15:07   #142
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CC, every aspect of boating is a compromise. The nice beach spot may quickly turn into a lee shore. The question becomes; do you want to take a chance on leaving your ground tackle or will have time to work you way off a lee shore?

Remember the original question? What is the advantage of a multi over a mono and vice a versa? People can't even come to agreement on how close is safe when anchoring off the beach. Whenever you pose a "this compared to that" type question you often end up with divisive answers.

Let me throw another one out that is a true indication of how strongly people feel about the choices they've made and why "this or that" questions create division.

Richard Woods has sailed mono's and multi's. His preference is clearly to sail a multi even though he felt it prudent to abandon his multi once. Has he ever abandoned a mono? I don't know but I do know through his writings here and in publications his clear preference, even with the ordeal he endured, is another multi. Is this the right answer? For Richard Woods it is.

There was another fellow here that once flipped a big cat, his personal preference for cruising was a mono. His choice is correct also.

So whenever you pose comparative questions, look out.

Joli

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
Having the ability to anchor in shallow water doesn't mean you are obliged to do so. If the shore might become lee, or if there are bugs you can still anchor out deep with a cat. You just have more options. Or you can overcome any congestion problems by anchoring somewhere too rolly for monohulls.
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Old 25-09-2008, 15:09   #143
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Originally Posted by Pelagic View Post
One part of a comparison discussion that has not been mentioned deals with “Structural Integrity” ….after 30 years of heavy use?

I honestly don’t know so I will ask…….Are there many 30 year old, well used Cats that have demonstrated long term structural integrity?

That could be a factor to consider when choosing.
There simply weren't many cats being built 30 years ago.

But a member here has one 44 years old, and still sailing fast -

Most likely built of plywood too. (Can you verify that Tnflakbait?) You would imagine modern composite boats would be at least as long lasting.
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Old 25-09-2008, 15:09   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
OK, let's go back to the original question and then we'll take two points of view.

Do you like the ability to anchor near the beach in shallow water?

One side says yes. It is convenient, a smaller dinghy can be used for trips, the water is not available to deeper draft boats..........

The other side says no. The safety aspect of being close to a beach is worrisome if the shore becomes lee, bugs are able to make it onto the boats easily, the congestion is greater as folks head in.........

Thats simply one aspect of ownership and they go on and on......there is the crux. Buying a boat is a personal decision influenced by sailing experience, marketing hype, forums like this, and a host of other reasons to numerous to mention.

I'll say it again, every plus has a minus and titles like this thread are divisive.

Once again Joli has hit the nail on the head. If someone has to ask this question in this manner then maybe they should be encouraged to forget buying a multihull and take up knitting. The poster is obviously coming off a very low knowledge base and should start with questions such as "what is sailing really like?". It is devisive. Maybe this thread topic was chosen as a windup. Probably similar to asking "why my partner is better than yours".
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Old 25-09-2008, 15:11   #145
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Jolie..is just Jolie. It's somehow comforting that some things just never will change

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
There simply weren't many cats being built 30 years ago.

But a member here has one 44 years old, and still sailing fast -
YouTube - Catamaran sailing

Most likely built of plywood too. (Can you verify that Tnflakbait?) You would imagine modern composite boats would be at least as long lasting.
Mine was built in '85 and going strong.
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Old 25-09-2008, 15:19   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joli View Post
CC, every aspect of boating is a compromise. The nice beach spot may quickly turn into a lee shore. The question becomes; do you want to take a chance on leaving your ground tackle or will have time to work you way off a lee shore?

Remember the original question? What is the advantage of a multi over a mono and vice a versa? People can't even come to agreement on how close is safe when anchoring off the beach. Whenever you pose a "this compared to that" type question you often end up with divisive answers.

Let me throw another one out that is a true indication of how strongly people feel about the choices they've made and why "this or that" questions create division.

Richard Woods has sailed mono's and multi's. His preference is clearly to sail a multi even though he felt it prudent to abandon his multi once. Has he ever abandoned a mono? I don't know but I do know through his writings here and in publications his clear preference, even with the ordeal he endured, is another multi. Is this the right answer? For Richard Woods it is.

There was another fellow here that once flipped a big cat, his personal preference for cruising was a mono. His choice is correct also.

So whenever you pose comparative questions, look out.

Joli
But I don't think anyone is saying someone's choice of boat is wrong. I'm certainly not.

But the ABILITY to anchor in shallow water is surely an advantage isn't it? Having the ability doesn't mean you have to, but the option is there. A deep keeled boat doesn't have that option.

My own boat can be dried out, which opens up another option again. It doesn't mean I have to beach the boat every time, but if I need to or want to I can. In cyclone prone areas, shallow draft allows you to get into skinny, well sheltered water, up creeks, among the mangroves, where there is no fetch.

Wouldn't you say that having that ability (but not an obligation) is indisputably an advantage?
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Old 25-09-2008, 17:22   #147
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Quote:
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Gmac I do have a preferance and guess what it is

Although statistics are sparse, a study of 35 publicized multihull capsizes between 1975 and 1985 contained only three cruisers, one anchored in a 170-knot hurricane. Ninety-one percent were racers, designed and sailed to the edge, and 60 percent occurred during racing or record attempts. A full 54 percent of the boats were eventually salvaged, some floating for months before retrieval. Ninety percent of the crews survived, and half of those lost were on a single boat shadowing the infamous 1979 Fastnet Race that claimed so many monohullers. What percentage of sunken or even rolled monohulls and their crews survive? We just don't know. Designer Chris White also has studied statistics and can only
conclude that, in recent decades, multihulls have proven to be up to 23 percent safer than monohulls.
I loaned this from 2 Hulls Multihull Catamaran and Trimaran Used and New Sail and Power Yac For the full story
Fancy that, only 3 and 2 of them in Auckland's Hauraki Gulf. Yes tongue in cheek, even though 2 cruising multis did go arse up in the early 80's here and I'd suspect they are not counted in the above, but does go to show limited studies are a tad pointless.

Statistically you can say Multi owners are a lot more defensive of being questioned on their choice of boat where mono and 'don't care' sailors don't. You could also say statistically Multi owners are a huge pile more one-eyed and a lot less likely to entertain other options beyond they own choice. Statistics garnered from this thread only

Again very much tongue in cheek but does show you can make just about anything out of sweet F' all if you want.

Oh here's one - if you do any distance coastal race around NZ, statistically you are more like to arrive at the end without a boat at all if you started it in a multihull. And if you started in a mono you have a statistically larger chance of finishing without a rig. That is actually true based on the last 10 years.

I do have to laugh at the 'damp cave mono' comments. Downstairs in my multi we described it as getting into the cardboard centre of a roll of toilet paper. And as for being in the hulls of many Cats, good golly, spacious? hardly. You know what I'm talking about when you go down into the skinny hulls with no windows. Yes I'll agree they aren't cave like, they sometimes are in fact a lot more like a sewer pipe.

I don't know what boats you guys are sailing but in all my years on many many different boats I've never seen some like described here, no matter the number of hulls.
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Old 25-09-2008, 17:45   #148
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Quote:
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Statistically you can say Multi owners are a lot more defensive of being questioned on their choice of boat where mono and 'don't care' sailors don't. .
Well, it would be fair to say that you'd be hard pressed to find a multi guy in a mono thread trashing monohulls. Yet it happens all the time in the multi threads. Of course we're defensive.

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Oh here's one - if you do any distance coastal race around NZ, statistically you are more like to arrive at the end without a boat at all if you started it in a multihull. And if you started in a mono you have a statistically larger chance of finishing without a rig. That is actually true based on the last 10 years..
If I ever move to NZ... I'll make a note. So far, here in the tropics, this is a non issue.

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I do have to laugh at the 'damp cave mono' comments. Downstairs in my multi we described it as getting into the cardboard centre of a roll of toilet paper. And as for being in the hulls of many Cats, good golly, spacious? hardly. You know what I'm talking about when you go down into the skinny hulls with no windows. Yes I'll agree they aren't cave like, they sometimes are in fact a lot more like a sewer pipe...
The mono guys in my marina would disagree with this. My boat is positively airy compared to anything smaller than 44ft-46ft in a mono.

Quote:
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I don't know what boats you guys are sailing but in all my years on many many different boats I've never seen some like described here, no matter the number of hulls.
Google them or check out my website on catalacs.
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Old 25-09-2008, 17:55   #149
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This is the problem here, people assume that everyone elses needs and desires are the same as their own. Closed eyes syndrome. For example (and not intentionally picking on the poster I quote, just using as an example) -

Quote:
Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
But the ABILITY to anchor in shallow water is surely an advantage isn't it?
No, in our normal cruising areas the problem is actually mostly one of finding water shallow enough to be able to safely anchor in .

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
My own boat can be dried out, which opens up another option again. It doesn't mean I have to beach the boat every time, but if I need to or want to I can.
Why would I want to beach my boat ? The boat is lifted when necessary, usually 2 yearly. I get a yard to do the dirty work (being the antifouling that usually at very little cost over the materials). Besides there is not enough tidal range most of where we sail to beach even a 500mm draft boat else it is, errr, rather rocky. If I had a cat and sufficient tidal range I still would not beach it, I'm not that sort.

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
In cyclone prone areas, shallow draft allows you to get into skinny, well sheltered water, up creeks, among the mangroves, where there is no fetch. Wouldn't you say that having that ability (but not an obligation) is indisputably an advantage
Actually no . We ourselves do not sail in cyclone regions and have no intention of ever doing so during the recognised risk months.

So all the multihull advantages quoted as being important to ALL in the referenced post do not apply to me in any way at all. I won't get onto other issues such as rolling at anchor (we seem pretty immune and I have seen even professional crews turning green during anchoring trials of even big power cats from the high GM induced sharp motions in some seas - whoops I just said I wasn't going to stray )

So you see, not everyones needs are the same as ones own. I find it amusing that some think everyone fits the same shoe or that one type of boat/material or another is the ultimate solution. Sometimes I think I would prefer a nice big power boat; our current boat is steel (not your average backyard horror but professionally custom built I hasten to add), at times I think it would have been better in aluminium, or in a kevlar, carbon, foam composite; our current boat is a mono and I know (and have said here) that if I lived in some places elsewhere I would have a cat instead - do you ever have such thoughts? Perhaps not.

It all gets down to how much vision and experience one has. Those with narrow or closed minds, or limited experience soon show themselves when they start talking as if everyone elses needs and desires must be the same as their own - that applies to all, whether multi, cat, power or sail, fine finished or well worn, etc, etc boat owners.
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Old 25-09-2008, 17:59   #150
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Statistically you can say Multi owners are a lot more defensive of being questioned on their choice of boat where mono and 'don't care' sailors don't. You could also say statistically Multi owners are a huge pile more one-eyed and a lot less likely to entertain other options beyond they own choice.
I'm not so sure about that. In one thread in the monohull section I dared to mention that I can take my cat into a couple of fantastic spots - Wathumba on Fraser Island, and Hill inlet, behind Whitehaven beach on Whitsunday island, both places a deep draught boat cannot go - and I was pretty soundly vilified by a (then) moderator for attacking monohulls! Try saying anything negative about ferro boats and see what happens

The fact is we don't see thread after thread of posts questioning the seaworthyness of monohulls. We particularly don't see hundreds of posts from people who have never even sailed on a monohull, telling everyone how unseaworthy they are. We don't see entire threads devoted to stating that a particular stretch of water is so rough monohulls dare not even venture there. There was even a post in a different thread(by the same ex moderator) stating that "several multihulls were lost" in the Queen's birthday storm.

On the multihull side we have to put up with that constantly.

Are we defensive, or are we just trying to achieve some balance?
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