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Old 18-11-2013, 05:24   #31
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

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Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat View Post
LOL!!!
44c, Breathing deeply into a brown paper bag helps, especially if the bag is loaded in true Qld tradition!
Mac
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Old 18-11-2013, 05:53   #32
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

bad orders as captain, you should have trimmed the main some and told your friend to bear 45 degrees up or any stable heading, downwind sailing is dangerous... there should be a whole blog of fukups we all have made mistakes that could have cost the boat and didnt just by luck
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Old 18-11-2013, 05:54   #33
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

you know youve lost control when your mouth suddenly goes dry
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Old 18-11-2013, 08:07   #34
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

It is one of the dangers of inexperienced crew that in trying to follow what they thought the skipper's instructions were, that they blow it. I once blew it by using the wind instrument to try to steer a course offwind by, not realizing how the seas, wind, and apparent wind affected the instrument. I turned "down" in response to the change in the instrument indication, and the boat gybed. Fortunately the main was prevented, or Jim'd have been overboard in the ocean miles from land, instead of only frightened and angry.

How's that for a big mess-up? And I'd had some minor league raacing seasons and some coastal cruising under my belt at the time, but had developed a dependency on the instruments, rather than figuring things out.

Ann
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Old 18-11-2013, 13:36   #35
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

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44c, Breathing deeply into a brown paper bag helps, especially if the bag is loaded in true Qld tradition!
Mac
Apart from the statement being rubbish, I was just trying to picture a cat capsizing several times....
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Old 23-03-2014, 05:40   #36
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

Looking for any lagoon 410 owners to share ideas and pain with.i have a 410 in Mallorca and am looking to sail to nz later in the year.
darreneckersley@hotmail.com . Looking to build a more substantial Bimini /solar array add more water tanks decide on new pilot ( no gimmicks just bullet proofish . Cruising chute sizes ideas.
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Old 24-03-2014, 01:39   #37
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"Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

2Wind, good post. Unfortunately, many cat owners do not know how to sail with an Asy and most think that you sail it exactly the same way as a mono. There are very few "instructors" that appear to know how to either. Firstly, the Asy is a very forgiving sail but also the most fragile one in your wardrobe. If you look after it, it will look after you for many years. When sailing down wind, it is the only sail you should have up - do not attempt to have the main up as well, as you will break batons or will have a lot of damage if you have an uncontrolled jibe.

When dowsing the sail in a sock, never release the sheet - always let fly the tack and let it fly - do not attempt to control it and make sure that there is no stop-knot at the end. Make sure that your tack line is shorter than the distance from the tack point to your rudder or prop, so that it cannot get into your steering or prop when it goes overboard, as it normally does. And as the tack is released to fly, there are two thing that should be in motion. The first is to have the engine opposite your sheet running at max permissible revs and the second is to have the crew on the sock downhaul are already pulling.

Only when the sock is nearing the bottom of its length is the sheet slightly eased to let the clew glide into the sock - never remove it fully from the winch. It can then be removed from the clew and brought back to the helm or tied to a rail - and then the sock with Asy lowered to the deck and bagged.

This was taught to me by a very experienced cat sailor in the mid 80, and has never failed me in over 400,000 nm of sailing cats with about 50,000 nm sailing under Asy. In all the years I have only lost one spinnaker and that was when the mast swivel block blew, snapping the halyard. It is always better to have at least two people dowsing the sail (one working the foredeck and one at the helm), however, if you have a reliable autopilot, you can actually do it all by yourself as long as the wind over deck does not get above about 17 knots. Hope the above can be understood.

John.
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Old 24-03-2014, 03:06   #38
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

I appreciate your knowledgeable explanation. In fact I've adopted this exact strategy. Mine came by trial and error. It would have been good to have learnt from someone else's experience....
Since doing so, I've had no issues and have regained lost confidence in the sail. I like the reccommendation about the length of the tack line. Out of caution, I have resorted to dousing and resetting rather than jibing to reduce the number of lazy lines that might inadvertently make their way overboard and find trouble.
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Old 24-03-2014, 03:24   #39
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

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I appreciate your knowledgeable explanation. In fact I've adopted this exact strategy. Mine came by trial and error. It would have been good to have learnt from someone else's experience....
Since doing so, I've had no issues and have regained lost confidence in the sail. I like the reccommendation about the length of the tack line. Out of caution, I have resorted to dousing and resetting rather than jibing to reduce the number of lazy lines that might inadvertently make their way overboard and find trouble.

2Wind, great to hear that you have got it right and do not have too many lines around - a loose sheet and a prop is like a magnet and a sheet of metal, the one always wants to attract the other! Yep, in cruising, keep it simple and douse, jibe and reset. The Asy is really a magic sail to have and easy to use. John.
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Old 24-03-2014, 06:13   #40
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

Greetings and welcome aboard the CF, Darreneckersley.
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Old 24-03-2014, 06:43   #41
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

Fine post 2Wind...

Thanks for sharing !
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Old 24-03-2014, 07:10   #42
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

I think I followed the after-action report, but I'm confused-- why was the engine needed when there was plenty of wind to sail?? Is this a common problem with cruising cats??
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Old 24-03-2014, 07:28   #43
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

The helmsman had allowed the boat run onto a somewaht deep reach rather than down wind, simultaneously with the "loss" of a foreward sail (paratially doused and progressively shredding ASI). An unbalanced main will want to drive the boat, rounding up to windward, which is usually controlled by rudder (weather helm). In this case the rudder was jammed by the trailing tangled sheets and tack lines, and as such, the boat settled with the wind and weather on the beam, making 8kts towards the nearby beach. In an attempt to push the bow down wind, the helmsman started the engines entangling the portside (leaward) prop stalling the engine. So there we were, stuck on an undesireable heading without steering or power, until the lines were cut free.
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Old 24-03-2014, 08:42   #44
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

I didn't realize that your rudder was jammed before you rounded up, and was further confused by John T's advice to firewall the windward engine while dousing. Glad to hear you recovered OK.

OTOH, reading John T's advice again set off my BS meter. So did the guy who recommended you come up to 45 degrees off the wind and double your apparent windspeed (quadrupling the load on the sock and chute).
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Old 24-03-2014, 09:47   #45
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Re: "Accidents" they are not: An encounter with Swiss Cheese Theory

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I didn't realize that your rudder was jammed before you rounded up, and was further confused by John T's advice to firewall the windward engine while dousing. Glad to hear you recovered OK.



OTOH, reading John T's advice again set off my BS meter. So did the guy who recommended you come up to 45 degrees off the wind and double your apparent windspeed (quadrupling the load on the sock and chute).

If you think it is BS, so be it. I do not know where you get the "come up to 45 degrees etc." from. This is on a catamaran, sailing downwind with the Asy. If you are doing this and you want to snuff the Asy, you are going to stop the boat when you trip the tack and the sail is going to fly forward, making it very difficult to sock it. Thus, keep a bit of speed with the engine to keep the boat moving downwind to be able to comfortably snuff the sail. If you still think it is BS, I really could not care. John.
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