A reminder to all of us to sail conservatively

[daletournier]

The problem with a thread like this is it paints a false picture to people that aren't that knowledgeable in regards to cruising boats, a newbie that is just starting to learn about our world.

The picture is misrepresenting cruising catamarans and is doing an injustice while creating prejudice.

Questioning cruising catamarans inherent safety is just ridiculous, they have the points on the board, the real world score board, they are successfully cruising the world and do so easily as well as comparative mono.

[tuskie]

Originally Posted by daletournier

The problem with a thread like this is it paints a false picture to people that aren't that knowledgeable in regards to cruising boats, a newbie that is just starting to learn about our world.

The picture is misrepresenting cruising catamarans and is doing an injustice while creating prejudice.

Questioning cruising catamarans inherent safety is just ridiculous, they have the points on the board, the real world score board, they are successfully cruising the world and do so easily as well as comparative mono.

Exactly!

[catsketcher]

I don't have a problem with this thread, apart from the self censorship of the multi owning community. We should always be on the look out for lessons to help us sail our boats better.

Sadly, it often comes down to "us and them", when it shouldn't. My points about monos being the choice of more sailors for racing because may be better racers for normal sailors, gets dismissed with the 50 year old line - yeah but they sink. But they don't, no-where near as much as the multis near them flip over. Yet we still trot out the line as we have been trained to do. If you do the maths we see that multis flip in races like the Gladstone and inshore stuff when no monos sink, and there are many times more monos.

We can't have it both ways. Either cats are more likely to capsize (which seems relatively easy to prove compared to monos sinking) or there is a vast difference between Rush hour and most cruising cats. This difference is subtle but real. As multi owners we need to explain these differences to newbies. They should not think that a powered up cat has the same righting moment as designated cruiser. If we go along with that we are helping to get someone into an incorrect type of boat.

I make mistakes, I have made lots of them and always will. I prefer racing monos because they go slower, hang in the start better, require more skill to stay in the groove, are heaps more maneuverable around marks, there are large fleets of similar speed boats, they can get really close to each other, their speed differentials are less, you can touch gently around a mark and no harm done. But I also like racing monos because I make mistakes and they allow me to make them and still get back to mooring.

We should never be blind to the limitations of our own boats. This requires us to be open-minded and open to detail and nuance. Rush hour is a performance cat, she has a bridgdeck but is more of a racer than a cruiser. Newbies need help to see the differences between her and other cats.

In the mid 70s James Wharram came up with a stability index. He suggested that all cruising boats should be able to take about 30 knots with full sail up. Other designers like Shttleworth and Kelsall use the more normal stability formula. This is probably still a useful formula. If we could get Rushour's rating certificate we could plug that in and see when she lifts a hull. I for one would like to cruise a boat that could take full sail (no screecher) up to 30 knots. I think that is a good cut off for a cruiser.

When I cruised a Twiggy in the early 90s Lock Crowther told me he couldn't understand why people cruised racing type boats when he had designed very safe cruising boats to do the job better. I think he is still correct today.

cheers

Phil

[Jim Cate]

Bravo, Phil!!!!

A very good post indeed, and one which might just be worth "stickying", for it has a realistic evaluation of a subject that has been victim of a lot of prejudiced rhetoric in the past.

As a long term mono sailor who appreciates the good things offered by multihull vessels of all sorts, I say well done!

Jim

[Seaslug Caravan]

Nice post Phil. Good appraisal.

Surely the Moderators aren't going to let Phil get away with this in the Multihull Forum of all places.

What about the TRADITIONS?

[smj]

I think Phil may be correct when talking racers, cruising cats are a different breed and stats do state a catamaran has about the same chance of flipping as a mono sinking. As this is the Cruisers Forum I think the truth about a cruising catamaran is also important.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

there is a vast difference between Rush hour and most cruising cats.

There is. I don'y know too many cruising cats that can do over 25 knots - And those that can are all owned by skippers who built them to cruise and go very very fast.


You say monos are safer, I suppose it depends on the definition of safe. All I know is that in Australia people have died racing monos, even in relatively protected areas, I cant recall someone dying in a racing multi in Australia this century. I cant recall too many at all ever, certainly the total number I recall is less that the loss of life in one Sydney to Hobart.

But all of this misses the point entirely. If Drew wants to race Rushour - good for him, its his boat his money and he isn't hurting anyone - literally and figuratively. I fail to see why he needs anyones approval.

Safety at sea is a skippers responsibility, if a skipper doesn't have the skill or are not prepared to take the risks then dont race. If skipper cant drive a nail through pine then don't buy an Evo 10.

[donradcliffe]

I agree with Phil, with a couple more comments.

There aren't just 'racing' cats and 'cruising' cats, there is a broad spectrum between them. The major difference between designs is the wind speed at which the windward hull starts to lift. The lower that wind speed, the higher the performance and the higher the risk of flipping. Its the laws of physics--you can't have the higher performance of a Gunboat 66 or Atlantic 55 without higher risk.

If your cat is sold in the EU, the owners manual is required to give you guidelines for sailing conservatively. Follow those guidelines, and you have an acceptably low risk profile--as long as the wind doesn't get over F8.

[smj]

I'm guessing your insurance company will determine whether your boat mono or multi is a good risk or not as they have a lot to lose and probably better accessibility to the statistics.
A quote I found which almost mirrors what Lloyds of London told me before purchasing our first cruising cat in 1992.
Fact is, monohulls sink about as often as catamarans capsize, which explains why Lloyd’s insurance policies on cruising boats are nearly the same for cats and monohulls of similar value. (Note: racing multihulls capsize quite often because they are little more than Hobie Cats on steroids, driven to the edge at all times by thrill seeking racers.)

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

I don't have a problem with this thread, apart from the self censorship of the multi owning community. We should always be on the look out for lessons to help us sail our boats better.

Sadly, it often comes down to "us and them", when it shouldn't. My points about monos being the choice of more sailors for racing because may be better racers for normal sailors, gets dismissed with the 50 year old line - yeah but they sink. But they don't, no-where near as much as the multis near them flip over. Yet we still trot out the line as we have been trained to do. If you do the maths we see that multis flip in races like the Gladstone and inshore stuff when no monos sink, and there are many times more monos.

We can't have it both ways. Either cats are more likely to capsize (which seems relatively easy to prove compared to monos sinking) or there is a vast difference between Rush hour and most cruising cats. This difference is subtle but real. As multi owners we need to explain these differences to newbies. They should not think that a powered up cat has the same righting moment as designated cruiser. If we go along with that we are helping to get someone into an incorrect type of boat.

I make mistakes, I have made lots of them and always will. I prefer racing monos because they go slower, hang in the start better, require more skill to stay in the groove, are heaps more maneuverable around marks, there are large fleets of similar speed boats, they can get really close to each other, their speed differentials are less, you can touch gently around a mark and no harm done. But I also like racing monos because I make mistakes and they allow me to make them and still get back to mooring.

We should never be blind to the limitations of our own boats. This requires us to be open-minded and open to detail and nuance. Rush hour is a performance cat, she has a bridgdeck but is more of a racer than a cruiser. Newbies need help to see the differences between her and other cats.

In the mid 70s James Wharram came up with a stability index. He suggested that all cruising boats should be able to take about 30 knots with full sail up. Other designers like Shttleworth and Kelsall use the more normal stability formula. This is probably still a useful formula. If we could get Rushour's rating certificate we could plug that in and see when she lifts a hull. I for one would like to cruise a boat that could take full sail (no screecher) up to 30 knots. I think that is a good cut off for a cruiser.

When I cruised a Twiggy in the early 90s Lock Crowther told me he couldn't understand why people cruised racing type boats when he had designed very safe cruising boats to do the job better. I think he is still correct today.

cheers

Phil

So you don't think the actual way in which the boat is sailed matters? It's all about the stability index?

I have to disagree. IMO the biggest difference between racers and cruisers is the way they ( the crews) sail, not necessarily the boats.

When I hear about racers carrying full mainsail PLUS spinnaker, AT NIGHT, in 30-35 knot winds, well it doesn't surprise me they sometimes capsize.

And that was a racer/cruiser style boat. Probably with a,similar stability index to my boat.

In those conditions I'd have maybe 1/2 the headsail up.

You don't think that would make a difference to the likelihood of capsize?

Re monos being "better" race boats, you could also argue that Hyundai Excels make better race cars than open wheelers, and for similar reasons. And they might be fine for you. But some will look for faster, more demanding platforms.

[Seaslug Caravan]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

So you don't think the actual way in which the boat is sailed matters? It's all about the stability index?

I have to disagree. IMO the biggest difference between racers and cruisers is the way they ( the crews) sail, not necessarily the boats.

.

Phewwwwww.

For a moment there I thought sanity was about to prevail. Silly me.

C"MONNNNN ,another 2 posts Mr C and you will have won this thread as well, after giving us all a head start.


Mr C, try re reading what Phil actually wrote.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Seaslug Caravan

Silly me

Agreed.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

. I for one would like to cruise a boat that could take full sail (no screecher) up to 30 knots. I think that is a good cut off for a cruiser.

cheers

Phil

That's easy. Remove the mainsail from your boat.

[catsketcher]

44 - Absolutely agree with you about racing and full sail, it is really up to the sailors on higher octane cats. That is why I think cats make such great cruisers, we can go speeds many monos race at under autopilot and at ease. But it is our responsibility to back off, just like when we drive cars. Just like cars, the more sedate ones don't get you into trouble as easily. But I won't sell the Ford Falcon just because someone flipped theirs. As for the main, Kankama probably would get close to lifting at around 25-30 depending on her cruising load. Considering that she can go from about 3600 to 5000 kg depending on whether I have her stripped or fully cruising I can keep the main on as long as I ride shotgun when she is lightship. (But I did meet an Oram owner who did put the main and daggerboards in a shed and keep cruising)

I am really interested in any problem that occurs in cats and I appreciate anyone telling me about them. This helps me stay safe and promotes safe thinking. A friend, who flies light planes, gets mailed a mag from CASA. In it is a synopsis of every light plane issue/mishap that has occurred. each incident gets forensically dissected and then conclusions drawn. Hard to do but a great resource that keeps other flyers safe. I think it is a good idea to follow suit and learn from every problem we can.

I remember when MW mag published a story on a Lightwave 10.5 capsizing on Wide Bay Bar. The publisher got rung up by another cat builder and told off for scaring potential buyers. Maybe it is like when Volvo introduced safety into cars, companies like GM did not like the idea of Volvo and Ralph Nader telling people about safety when GM could sell the romance of motoring. In the end safety WAS a plus for sales, it just took a shift in thinking. I would like us to be more open about issues in multis too.

As for racing, I am happy for anyone to race whatever they want. In reality my favourite racing is still on dinghies, Lasers or Tasars - one design, 60-100 boats in a fleet, super close racing, smaller effect on my wallet and nice people. The people are it for me when racing. I am sure it is similar for others too. You race the boats the people you like race.

cheers

Phil

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by catsketcher

44 - Absolutely agree with you about racing and full sail, it is really up to the sailors on higher octane cats. That is why I think cats make such great cruisers, we can go speeds many monos race at under autopilot and at ease. But it is our responsibility to back off, just like when we drive cars. Just like cars, the more sedate ones don't get you into trouble as easily. But I won't sell the Ford Falcon just because someone flipped theirs. As for the main, Kankama probably would get close to lifting at around 25-30 depending on her cruising load. Considering that she can go from about 3600 to 5000 kg depending on whether I have her stripped or fully cruising I can keep the main on as long as I ride shotgun when she is lightship. (But I did meet an Oram owner who did put the main and daggerboards in a shed and keep cruising)

I am really interested in any problem that occurs in cats and I appreciate anyone telling me about them. This helps me stay safe and promotes safe thinking.

Phil

Craig would love to fit a boom and mainsail to his boat, but his wife is terrified it will capsize the instant he does. She reads all the "all cats capsize" crap going around.

So instead of a 50m mainsail, they run a range of spinnakers up to about 120m. Safer right?

And seriously, how many capsized racing boats do you need to see, before you understand that carrying too much sail for the conditions can lead to a capsize?